Kinship in Collective & Collaborative Practices: Shifting Studio Glass Histories

This transcript was created using speech recognition software. The GEEX team reviewed the transcription, but it may contain errors. If you’re able, please refer to the episode audio before quoting this transcript. Email support@geex.glass with any questions.

Corey Pemberton  

I aspire to do what you talk about: making art on that scale.

vanessa german  

But you do realize that you are, right? You do realize that you are both social sculptors, in a way that you are working at the scale of life?

vanessa german

You didn’t hoard what you knew. And you couldn’t hoard what you know, because hoarding, being greedy with your wisdom and being greedy with your heart means that the community suffocates and starves to death. So you are operating as on the grand scale of social sculpture like you’re creating a world that is a work of art.

Corey Pemberton  

Yeah, you right. You right.

Cedric Mitchell  

I need to talk to you every day.

Corey Pemberton  

[laughs] I want to go to church of Vanessa.

[MUSIC: Poddington Bear – Refraction]

Emily Leach

Hey there! Welcome to the GEEX Talks Q&A Podcast. I’m Emily Leach.

I’m one part of the GEEX team, along with Ben Orozco and Helen Lee. All three of us are artists, learners, educators working in glass. Through our work with GEEX, we’re interested in the power of storytelling: to shift perspectives, connect people, and rethink possible futures. In addition to this podcast, Ben and I edit and produce the GEEX Talks lecture series. (Which is now in its third season!)

Our format this year, “Expanded Glass Histories,” pairs glass-y artists and researchers based on shared themes and impulses in their work.

You’ve already met our guests for this episode on Kinship — Cedric Mitchell and Corey Pemberton, representing Better Together, in conversation with citizen artist vanessa german.

This conversation follows their respective GEEX Talks lectures from Fall 2022. We received almost 80 questions from our audience, whittled them down to a list of roughly fourteen, and then shared them with the speakers as a framework for their discussion. Later on, I’ll talk a little bit about how you, as a listener, can participate in these Q&As and support public scholarship in glass.

Thanks to Wet Dog Glass and Pittsburgh Glass Center for sponsoring this episode. You’ll hear more about them later on.

That’s enough from me — back to the conversation.

[MUSIC decays]

Corey Pemberton  

Hi, my name is Corey Pemberton.

Cedric Mitchell  

My name is Cedric Mitchell.

vanessa german  

Hi, my name is Vanessa German.

Corey Pemberton  

So how did we meet? Cedric and I met probably about seven years ago. Is that right, Ced?

Cedric Mitchell  

That’s around that time in 2014.

Corey Pemberton  

At the 2014 GAS Conference in Chicago. We had each individually — without knowing that the other one existed — reached out to the same artist, Joe Cariati, and expressed interest in assisting him with his demonstration or just sort of like being in his orbit, in whatever way, you know, he saw fit or possible. And he ended up responding to both of us and inviting us to help with his demonstrations. So, you know, there we were: two Black glassblowers, from different parts of the country, who had never really worked with another Black glassblower. And now we’re on the floor together in this big studio at this big conference where everybody’s watching and, all of a sudden, this guy Joe… he went from having no Black assistants to two Black assistants. And we would eventually both go on to work for him, Ced before myself, went to relocate to Los Angeles. And I did the same a couple years later in 2019. And so we both ended up working for the same artist together. Vanessa and I have not formally met until just now. But I’ve attended a couple of Zoom lectures that she’s done over the past year or so, and just been very impressed with how thoughtful she is. And her work and her life and her practice and how engaged she is with people outside of herself and generous with her time and thoughts.

Cedric Mitchell  

Yeah, like Corey was saying, we met at the GAS conference in 2014, which was a very special and magical moment. You know, I introduced myself and he introduced himself and also told me that his dad was named Cedric, so I’ve kind of felt like, it was a special moment and more was to come, you know, from that, like, it wouldn’t be the last time we crossed paths. Sort of like family now. So, you know, we see each other a lot, we go on family trips, and we work together.  This is my first time formally meeting Vanessa as well. But I felt a connectivity with her from watching her talk. The most important thing that stood out to me was love being the healing component of everything. And the connectivity from the community, and in the people that she surrounds herself with.It just made me think about the woman who taught me how to blow glass, and she pulled me to the side one day and, and told me that I’m not here for myself — that I’m here for other people. So that was a real special thing to watch her talk.

vanessa german  

I have been with you all in your video, which I’ve watched more than once. And I feel quite naturally into the spaces where people are engaging soulfully and lovingly, in their own creative adventures and the way that they extend a space of spirit and loving forth from that place. So that’s kind of how I read the world. And so watching you all, the first thing that came to me was the connection that you two have as human beings with one another, and how… To be honest, how precious it is to bear witness to the caring and creative, intentional relationship between Black people, between two Black human beings, and then to see you extend that forward. So I recognize that there’s a place of like a such deep dimensional connection between you two.

So what I celebrate is the love that you two have for each other, and how that love makes so much more of itself, and the ways that you share what you love. And I think it’s a really primal, original technology to love one another and then to share what you love, inviting in other human beings to expand in the adventures of their humanness. And so when I watch everything that you do, it’s like watching the magic of replication, or like a Mandelbrot spiral, just watching it, go and go and go and go forward. Because I also recognize that you all have touched so many people in ways that they are not able to actually give language for, but they continue on. Even the fact that some people are probably literally able to continue on in their life and their work because of experiences that you’ve invited them into. So I recognize how powerful it is.

But I also recognized watching you two, that you’re artists individually. And I always wonder if people who start organizations and initiatives are able to protect the time and space of their own creative desire and adventures. And so I thought about that, and I thought about how, like if what you’ve created has a succession plan, so that you too can step away from it, and continue adventuring on in the mystery and the wonder of your own work and allow what you’ve created to move forward. But I came in… it was… It really is quite a poetic thing to watch you two together and to watch you talk about what you created and it’s a thing of beauty.

Cedric Mitchell  

That was beautiful.

Corey Pemberton  

So kind. Too kind, perhaps.

Cedric Mitchell  

Can you talk about what kinship means to you and your practice?

For me, I mean, what kinship means to me is, you know, the connectivity and bringing in all these different walks of life together. I mean, initially, that’s what Better Together was started for us to engage in the community, you know, we first did the first Better Together, it was in Los Angeles and El Segundo. And there’s not very many, you know, people of color around this area. And you know, what we’re trying to do is connect within the community and bring people into our space, and share, you know, what we do with others.

And then, you know, with that, that first event, we seen, so many things happen, and transpire, the most memorable moment was like, you know, watching this little Black girl and a white girl, you know, help the guy make smoothies, you know, who was a vendor, and then just watch these kids play. And that was the moment right there or just like that, that’s what it’s all about, you know, you got these different walks of life coming together. And then being able to spread that and other communities as well. Like in New Orleans, we went there, and, you know, we kind of want to figure out how we can connect with their culture and bring that into the space what we were doing as well. So, you know, having DJ Jubilee, who is a well known DJ and cultural figure in New Orleans, be there, and then, you know, connect with the community and go see a second line and, you know, just embrace everything within the community and the culture. And which helps us, you know, with our practice and change, changing lives and things like that.

Corey Pemberton  

Yeah, kinship to me means family, it means bond, it means tight-knitedness. And when I think about those words, in relation to my practice, I think about the sort of, like, instant family that you get through glassblowing and that we get as an even smaller community of Black glass artists. It’s this sort of connection that people can’t even understand if they’re not in the club. It’s like if you know, you know, type situation where, you know, glassblowing in particular is this. It’s this process that is extremely difficult, but it’s also accomplished through teamwork. And so we automatically have these bonds that form with people who we work alongside or who assist us, because we can’t do what we do without them. And so that bond that’s formed, it’s, I think, stronger than that of other craft media or artistic professions, or professions in general. And then again, you know, we’ve moved through these spaces where they are predominantly occupied by people who don’t look like us.

In our case. Cedric was one of the first, you know, other Black glassblowers I met after I’d been blowing glass for damn near four years. And so it’s this thing, where, you know, you’ve already got that bond, because you’re glassmakers, but now, we’ve got this other shared experience of having been the only person in the room who looks like us, and media that is extremely difficult and takes a lot of time, and dedication. And so, I mean, when I see I’m like, I goosebumps just thinking about it, because when I see another Black person who makes glass or has, makes artwork with glass, and has dedicated some time and space to that, it’s like your family, I don’t even you don’t even got to open your mouth. I already know: we’re family.

vanessa german  

I think about kinship first, in the hyper intimate, being kin with yourself, especially I experienced a lot of and have experienced my whole life, just a lot of disruption in this culture, separating me from myself, from my own ideas from connecting with my own body, heart, mind, and spirit. And I feel like this a function of white supremacist delusion and capitalism to actually separate you from nature separate you from yourself as nature, and a separate you into something that can be sort of, like placed and consumed easily in a culture of this shape. So I’m experiencing my first deep relationships with kinship in just with myself and giving myself permission to hear myself to be in communication with my own heart and ideas and spirit, with my own agency and authority, like coming to a place where I’m a self taught artist, and I had to enter into a place where I well, I was sort of forced into a place where it was like a matter of life or death that I had to be able to listen and be kin to my own self. And so that hyper intimate kinship of, of, you know, I think that all artists have is this place where you’re in relationship with your own ideas. And you’re relating those ideas and connecting them to your history to present themes. And so giving full permission to the deep, intimate technology, of listening to oneself, and then recognizing that that is, in a lot of ways infectious.

I love being in the room with Therman.

Corey Pemberton  

Just for the listeners of this podcast: Therman Statom, to me, is one of the OGs of American Studio Glass, and he happens to be Black. And so for us, he’s a role model and someone who you’ll hear us talk about a lot.

vanessa german

I really want to cuss to talk about this, but I recognize that children are being taught not to cuss as a way to express deep emotion so I’m not going to do it. But there’s a way that Therman… I watch Therman enter into like, really instinctive frequency. And so when I like watch him working and telling, communicating to the team members, and moving through the space, it’s like watching a kind of sizzling miracle or something, because I’m watching him communicating on so many levels with himself and bringing that internal communication externally in a way that is so warm, because I’ve watched people move ideas from inside of themselves to outside of themselves. And sometimes it’s harsh and they remove dignity from other people because they are… It’s like crunchy, but that’s a personality thing. But I think about watching Therman make such a warm space in the team and watching him actively in almost the instant of inspiration, like speak things out loud and watch people respond to it. And that way of seeing that internal intimate kinship with his own self and his identity in the wholeness of himself as an artist. And then watching him, like, bring that into the kin of the team is something that is always really powerful to me about being in glass spaces, and especially being in glass places with glass spaces with people who are not refusing the spirit of the thing itself. Right. And so for me kinship is, that intimate, deep internal technology that’s connected to your DNA, it’s connected to memory. And it’s connected to how you’ve been treated in other spaces. And then watching how that lives in the external shape of community and team. I feel like it is actually one of the truest and most profound gifts of being human to be in kinship with ourselves, and then to extend and to be nourished in the communal kinship.

Corey Pemberton  

Yeah, beautifully said. And I’m just thinking about what you said about Therman too in that way that he is. And it’s like, he could be saying something that, you know, somebody else might bark out, and it would seem very nasty or some type of way, but when he says it, it’s always with this undertone of inclusion, you know, he’s pulling you in and he’s bringing you into the process and into, yeah, his his his little family.

vanessa german  

He does do that, like he gathers, he gathers in more than one way if I could say, like, he is gathering people around him.

vanessa german  

Can I tell you all a Therman story? 

We were at a museum patron party — a very wealthy patron of a museum. I was the only like dark skinned Black person there. Therman is very… has lighter skin. And Therman was standing next to me, when one of the people who were doing hand service of food was standing next to me and the person came up to me and they said, “I hope that you’re not Muslim, because we only have pork.” And Therman looked at me, and the person walked away. And I was sort of like, I told the person, I was like, “I’m good.” You know, and Therman looked at me, and he said, does this always happen to you? Because also at the same party, four or five white men came up to me and Therman was just like being Therman just moving through the space together. And these four or five white men came up to me and a white man looked at me and he said, “Would you like to see my t-shirt?” And I was like, what’s going on? And he unbuttoned a polo… And he opened up the polo, and he had a t-shirt on that said, “Welcome to [the city that we were in], now get out.” And I was like, I don’t even know how to understand that t-shirt. And so, Therman had seen that happen to me, he was by my side. And when the person said, “I hope you’re not Muslim, because we only have pork.” And I was like, “I’m good.” Therman looked at me. And he said, “Does this always happen to you?” And I said, “Something’s always kind of happening in an environment that’s predominantly white. Like, my Blackness really stands out.” And he, Therman said to me, he goes, “This kind of stuff doesn’t happen to me.” And then he started to cry. And he said, “I just didn’t know what it was like to move in your body as a darker skinned Black female.” And then he offered to leave with me, and we left together.

And that’s just Therman being Therman, and vulnerable and seeing what’s happening and saying something about it. But I never forget the way that he was like, “Is this your reality?” And I was like, “Sometimes it is.” And he was like, “Well, we are going to leave this reality. We are going to go together to another place.” And we left.

Corey Pemberton  

That’s beautiful. I mean, it’s not beautiful that it happened. It’s beautiful that he was there for you at that moment.

vanessa german  

Yeah, it’s been there for a lot of moments because we’ve often been, like the only Black people and I’m getting invited in as somebody from outside the glass world, and he’s inside. And so like he has this reputation. And then I come in, and I get to kind of sometimes coattail on Therman, which is good.

Corey Pemberton  

Thinking about how structures can support and reinforce kinship: How do you guys develop equitable community spaces, whether it’s through your work with ArtHouse, or Better Together, or other parts of your practice?

vanessa german  

I’ll start. Mine is always like to actually begin in relationships with human beings, not any institution, system or structure at all. So this is, for me, about the first kind of meeting that I’ll have with anybody. You know, like, I’m not going to take my first meeting, inside of an institution, I’m not going to… like I make things very personal, immediately, which makes people uncomfortable. Sometimes, there’s times that I’ve been asked, like, Is this appropriate to talk about certain things, and I’m, and one of the reasons why I speak like personally and informally and intimately and about love and vulnerability and courage is because most of our community plays spaces are really destroyed. Because the idea of community in this culture is so often splintered and fractured, and has so many, for me, I will speak personally, there are so many layers of violence, that, that I feel like I have to enter into the engagement, first through the technology of my heart, and be in a space where I can make eye contact and be personal and begin community begin, like an experiment of community in a more intimate way. And I think about how structures can support or reinforce kinship.

You know, there’s a lot in that question that kind of is frustrating to me, because I’m really tired of being positioned as a Black person reinforcing and retraining, a lot of retraining the humanity back into whiteness, or something like that, or just being like the bridge or something like that. I feel like there’s a lot of structural, systemic work that has to be done by white people. I feel like the center of decolonization has to be done by colonizers. And people who benefit to the top of the, to the top of the line by those structures. And so like, I’m actually really interested in weird spaces, I’m interested in strange spaces, I’m interested in spaces that stumble and figure out how to be alive. And, and sometimes that is just in creating a space where people feel safe enough to be vulnerable and creative, at the same time, and it’s living work. And for me, it’s about eye contact and softness, and, and vulnerability. And then, you know, if you’re in spaces with white folks who are able to take responsibility, that has to happen also. I experience it as something that is a living process. And it seems it’s a living process. I feel responsible for my heart to make spaces that are compassionate and empathetic, and as alive as humanly possible. Which means that it’s a very slow process sometimes.

Corey Pemberton  

Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that idea of just trying to be more human and more… I don’t know. When I think about reinforcing this idea of kinship or developing equitable community spaces, I think about just meeting people where they’re at, rather than trying to mold people into what your idea of a space or an event or institution should be. You know, when Cedric and I came up with this idea to do the first Better Together, we put out a call for entry, but it wasn’t the sort of typical call for entry that you hear about which is… You know, asking people to write a certain type of way, or present their work in a certain type of way. We, we did request images, or links to websites, but if you know, somebody had one and not the other, that didn’t mean that they were automatically, you know, out for this particular opportunity, it just meant that we had to look at them in a different light and consider, you know, not just what we, you know, what they were bringing to us, but like, what this opportunity would do for them. And so, I think that a lot of institutions could benefit from sort of thinking that way. And, and creating space for people who don’t already make the type of work or bring the type of thought to the table that they’ve already been, been showcasing, making space for people who make stuff that looks completely different, or that, you know, doesn’t doesn’t come off academic, or for people who don’t write extremely well, or who don’t have shiny portfolios.

Cedric Mitchell  

Community, for me, that means, you know, a group of people that care about each other, and they feel like they belong together. So, you know, putting those people in the room, and creating that environment is truly special and important to me. Because that’s what I care about, I want to include everyone, and I want people to feel like they belong there. You know, you know, no matter what they look like, or how different they are, you know, we’re all human, we’re all different walks of life. But can we, you know, put our things, our differences to the side, and empower one another and celebrate one another in this one space, and create this, you know, to where we’re, we’re all equal. So that’s, like, usually, just the special thing about the spaces that, you know, we created Better Together, is, you know, everyone feels like they belong, in that space.

When I go traveling to other spaces, I want to feel like that as well. You know, I’m, sometimes I, I engage with some spaces, and I’m with other people who are Black. And they informed me that this is the first time they ever felt like that, you know, recently, I was teaching somewhere, and then my TA pulled me to the side and was like, “I feel like I’m with Barack Obama, like, nobody has ever treated me like this in this space.” And I was like, you know, that’s, that’s unfortunate. But you know, when I leave, hopefully, they keep that same energy. Because this is, this is how you’re supposed to feel in this space, where people are talking to you and engaging with you know, they shouldn’t be treating you like that, just because I’m around, you know, so, you know, me speaking with her about that situation, and in others, and connecting her with other people in the community, you know, who looked like her, and bringing those people together. So that way, when I step away, and I’m out of the picture, you know, that same type of energy is still flowing through that space.

Corey Pemberton  

Yeah, it’s like treating everybody with the same level of respect, regardless of their experience level, or their skill level or their age or their, you know, this or that. It’s just like creating an even playing field for everyone. And being considerate of people’s backgrounds and what they’re bringing to the table and what they might need in a space to feel comfortable.

vanessa german  

Do you feel like some of the work of creating equitable community spaces and reinforcing kinship… Do you feel like there’s a space for people to bring their baggage and the things that happen to them and other spaces to like clear out some of the trauma that they might have experienced in other spaces? Where… because I know when, like I first was invited to Pittsburgh Glass Center, I was so skittish because I had been invited into so many other spaces with the advent of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. It was like, not everybody in these institutions had like culturally bought into equitable spaces, it was their job. And then I would enter spaces and I’d be like, “Oh, God, like, what microaggression…? Like, what thing is gonna happen now?” You know? And I think about, like, how do you like what are the first words you say, at a Better Together gathering to let people know that they’re okay to be skittish in that space? Because stuff might have happened someplace before. Like, do you have like an invocation?

Or is it just that people know enough about it now that they’re like, woo. A space I can enter into and I can be, and I know that I’m going to be okay in this space. Because I unfortunately feel like there’s… I have so many questions about spaces that I’m invited into sometimes that I, like, do this thing where I sort of tiptoe at first to see if I’m going to be okay.

Do you have to do any invisible work around the trauma that people bring with them into spaces to then enter into the open field of kinship? Because some people will stand outside the gate of kinship and be like, “Oh, no, I could get in here and y’all could y’all could have a bull run at me,” or something like that, you know?

And because I’ve watched Black folks, I’ve watched people keep themselves out, because they just don’t trust anymore. Because I’ll be honest with you, when I was invited to Related Tactics at Tyler, and I was like, and I, you know, I got all the information and everything. And I’m looking at my instructions from Che…

[DING]

Emily Leach

Just popping in to add some context — vanessa is discussing a project by the artist collective Related Tactics, composed of Michele Carlson, Nate Watson, and Weston Teruya, who were actually featured as GEEX Talks speakers in November 2021.

Following their 2020 essay in New Glass Review on systemic racism, exclusion, and inequity in the field of glass, Related Tactics organized a collaborative project called “Disclosure: The Whiteness of Glass.”

RT invited artists of color to creatively translate data about the narrow demographics of the glass field through three iterative stages of interpretation. This started with data visualizations by RT; artists then interpreted those visualizations and translated them to sets of creative instructions; which culminated in sculptural glass responses which were made at the Tyler Glass program in Philly.

Corey and I were part of the group that wrote instructions, along with Joyce Scott, Ché Rhodes, Einar and Jamex de la Torre and Cheryl Derricotte [Der i COT].

Those instructions were then interpreted by vanessa, along with Victoria Ahmadizadeh Melendez, Helen Lee, Pearl Dick, Kim Thomas, and Raya Friday.

Okay, back to vanessa.

vanessa german

…And Nate’s there and stuff. And I said, you know, like I told Nate, I said, “I really, I think I should go home. Like, I’m not a glass artist, I don’t want to take time and space from anybody else. And I feel really, really uncomfortable here.” And I was like, my lip was shaking. And I felt so bad. I felt I just… I didn’t feel good in my body. I was in this new space of these new people with these expectations. And I’m don’t blow glass. So I was going to need other artists to stop what they were doing to help me. And Nate looked at me, and he said, “I’m going to have to ask you to trust us.” “Vanessa,” he said, “Could you please trust me?” And I started crying. I was like, that Black man just asked me to trust him. And I know I’ve never had a Black man just asked me point blank to trust them. And I feel like I gotta trust. And so I’m gonna trust them. And I cried, and I was like, I was it to you as soon as I trust you. But it was hard. It was even hard to say that I didn’t feel comfortable in a space that was actually crafted for me to feel comfortable in.

Corey Pemberton  

Yeah, that’s important. And, you know, we try to, like we did a Better Together recently at Pilchuck Glass School in Washington. And, you know, we’re new to this, Cedric and I, we’ve done several, you know, three, four Better Togethers now. But they keep growing and changing and everyone’s a little bit different. And each one picks up, you know, new members. And there’s more and more people who are pulled into this thing every time. And so do we have like a protocol for that sort of thing? Not really. But we try to be considerate.

You know, when we met at Pilchuck, the first thing we did was we gathered together in the library. And we sat around this table and looked at each other. And we just talked for a long while before we even set foot in a studio. Because I knew that we had invited some people that were, you know, at varying levels in their career, if we had Therman Statom there who has, you know, been there longer than any other? Any of us. And then we had, you know, Arthur Wilson and Terry Sigler, these people who are amazing artists in their own right, but who have been doing this for less time. And so probably, along with bringing the type of baggage and trauma that you’re referring to, have the sort of imposter syndrome that they’re trying to combat as well. Like, “Am I supposed to be in this space in this room? Is this for me? Am I… Do I have anything to offer here?”

And the first thing I wanted to make sure everybody knew was that this wasn’t for anybody but them. And for us. This wasn’t for Pilchuck Glass School. This wasn’t for the greater glass community. This was for these artists in this room to come together and to share ideas and to bond and to make work and there was not going to be any focus on object. You know, we weren’t here to like, make the biggest best piece we’d ever made. If we didn’t make a goddamn thing all week and all we did was sit in that library and talk like that would have been an amazing experience. And so it is important to me to try and sort of set that expectation early on that you don’t have to be anything other than what you are, what you are is perfect. And what you have to offer is enough. And let’s go from there.

vanessa german  

I feel like that’s so healing, because that is actually contrary to the cultural message that we receive. The cultural message — I feel — that like is broadly available is that you’re actually not okay where you are and how you are. But here are four things you can buy, three schools that you can go to, like a process that you can do to like shapeshift yourself into something that Okay, now, you’re okay to be here. And I appreciate… Well, what I want to say is, I think it’s really wise, this wise in like a vast way to always speak that really original truth that we’re here to be together. And you being exactly who you are is exactly right.

Corey Pemberton  

Yeah, we don’t get told that enough. And that’s what makes people feel left out or like they can’t even begin to enter a space. They think they’re not enough or they’re not right. And, yeah. We don’t hear that enough.

[MUSIC: Otis McDonald – We Cruisin’]

Emily Leach

I haven’t had the opportunity to buy a continuous melt furnace but I figured that…

Helen Lee

[laughs]

Emily Leach

[laughing] That I might ask someone who has had the pleasure of working with Wet Dog Glass, so I thought I would ask you, Helen.

Helen Lee

So, outside of my role as the director of GEEX, I’m the head of the glass department at UW-Madison. I first got here in 2014, and one of the very first things I sought out was to upgrade our furnace. I immediately got on Wet Dog’s radar.

Eddie and his team came up and installed our 700 pound, continuous melt electric furnace. Our furnace has been the workhorse of our studio for roughly the past decade, and it’s still totally mint. It’s kind of phenomenal to realize that all of the hot work that’s come out of the UW Glass Lab over roughly the past decade has come from this furnace.

The Shop Dog access and being able to look into the furnace remotely has really just alleviated, you know, a lot of concerns and granted a lot of peace of mind.

I always tell people, like… “Oh, god. Having a furnace is like having a baby.” [laughing] But being able to look into the furnace from afar has been just like such a crucial and useful tool, and has also enabled a lot of delegation in terms of working with technicians and tech support and not having to feel like it’s all on my shoulders.

They had also… [laughing] They had made a stop motion video of their install, and like snuck in a frame… It was like a sign that said “Hi, Helen!” or something like that. I got to look that up, it’s been a while.

Their team was just so fun, and so swift and competent in terms of just like, rolling in here and having three days to assemble this, like, giant ass piece of complicated equipment. But it was really seamless and super fun to work with them.

Emily Leach

Wet Dog Glass is your studio’s best friend. Learn more at wdg-us.com/.

[MUSIC decays]

vanessa german  

How does this work integrate backwards into education and glass, as well? And how do we reshape the educational environments where glass is learned?

Have you all thought about that? Have you put like, a lot of thought where like, how do we reshape the environment where young Black artists — young BIPOC artists — are coming to actually learn the thing that you know? Because… What would you change about the ways that you learned or the environments you learned in?

Cedric Mitchell  

I would say, like, ensuring a high level of comfort, for people entering that space for them to be comfortable, that’s first and foremost.

vanessa german  

What are ingredients of comfort, Cedric? What are the ingredients of comfort?

Cedric Mitchell  

I let them know that they’re okay. And like, we’re not here to judge anyone, we’re all here to learn. And, you know, we’re all, if we’re beginners, we’re beginners, or wherever we are, we’re here to learn, and we’re not trying to judge our success in this environment, or this class or learning environment off someone else’s success., and what I’ve learned is treating different people differently, and trying to understand them from, from where they’re at. We’re all dealing with something. So I try to, like, connect with them on their level.

To let them know that, everything’s okay. We’re just here to learn. When you’re teaching, you have to learn, like, how to connect with human beings. Everybody doesn’t learn at the same pace, same level, some people might need a little bit more time, or some people just might not be, they’re just dealing with some other issue, you know, so you might have to connect with them on that level. Which I’ve, I’ve had happen plenty of times.

vanessa german  

Do you ever find like… I find that when I was first working with my neighbors on my front porch that the kids were obsessed with perfection? And they would want to just toss out paper and just want to get rid of stuff? Because it wasn’t perfect? Do you find that in educational environments, you have to talk specifically? Or have you shaped a way to talk about what a mistake is and how you learned from mistakes and how beautiful mistakes are and like, so that people do not either feel shamed by mistakes or like are very harsh with themselves? With themselves about being in the nature of being a beginner?

Because I feel like I was… I was always surprised how emotional young people would get in some environments that I would be a teaching artist in around “not perfection.” Like it was very painful to them to not have a drawing be like exactly what they saw in their mind. And it was painful for them to look around the room and be like, “That’s better than mine.” And they had this sort of automatic experience of competition. How do you… Especially for glass, like, you know, I definitely have cried when things… I’m an emotional person, but like, I cry when stuff breaks in the hot shop, or when it you know, I do and everybody, everybody around me is so easy about it, you know, and like, we worked on this huge piece for Related Tactics, and it just got a little bit too cold. And it was like hours of work, and it was just gone. And I cried, and everybody else was high fiving themselves and hugging, and they were like, “Man, look what we did!”. And I was like, “But it’s gone.” And so like how, what, how do you hold the different cultural reckoning with learning, and mistake making?

Cedric Mitchell  

I can definitely relate to that. I’ve had a student just start crying while heating a piece. And I had to ask what was wrong? And, you know, her answer was, “I’ve never not been good at anything.” You know, so coming up with a rallying together, and figuring out a way to, like, relate to this person. And to uplift them and empower them was, you know, make it a game. So I made it a game of making a cup, you know, so where we all felt connected. So we all did a part of the cup, you know, to bring her up and boost her confidence level. So we’re a team, and we’re acting as a team, um, and just something in celebrating those mistakes.

Because we’re always trying to chase perfection and all that, you know, and then the crazy thing about chasing perfection, you get so far in your career as a glass artist, and you make these perfect things. And then you realize that people want organic things, and they celebrate those things. Like, I had a project where a guy wanted me to make everything look like seconds, he didn’t want it to look perfect. He wanted them to all be unique. And that was his like, method of selling, like “I want the person to come into the store and pick the glass that connects with them. I don’t want them all the same, I want them to be different. So they can feel that connectivity with this, with the one that speaks to them.”

And it was a pretty interesting concept. It took me a while to understand, celebrating those unique qualities of, you know, whatever you’re making, and a lot of artists, you know, like Basquiat, you know, everything he made was just organic and just… it’s free, it’s a freeing thing. So if you can, like, lean into that a little bit, and celebrate those differences. And you can discover like your identity within that design or within that art, and then develop it a little bit more instead of like chasing perfection, that’s we spend too much time chasing this idea of perfection, which doesn’t exist. And it seems to drive you crazy, you know, especially me.

So just letting go. And then that’s another thing like with glass, which I’ve learned is detachment, you know, and when things break, I’m just, you know, detaching myself from it, which helped me in life, you know, because in life I’ve experienced so many traumatic experiences, you know, which kind of related to like life, you know, and it being hard, glassblowing is hard. Life is hard. And to just, you know, detach a little bit from life and learn how to love people without being like, so attached. Things like that. So it’s really helped me a lot, and just learning how to be like more human. And to celebrate the uniqueness of everything that has been made. Even though I throw a lot of things away that are not perfect, now I [try to] keep them so I can look at them and learn from them.

vanessa german  

Thank you.

Corey Pemberton  

I agree with that idea that you know, there’s this overemphasis on perfection and completed object. I’ve tried in my own teaching to try and sort of move away from that by focusing on experiences over object, especially when we’re talking about beginning glassblowing. I mean, you can, you can take a beginning glassblowing class for a whole year before you make something that, you know, anybody might spend $1 on. And so I’ve been teaching this workshop where we… It’s a beginning class, and we’re looking at glass through the lens of the tablescape. Making drinkware, tableware, cups, bowls, plates, vases, serving vessels. Because, you know, that’s the sort of glass that I like to make. But, rather than focusing on like, “Okay, this cup isn’t exactly the right proportions or shape, or the side walls not straight.” What we’re working towards is a collaborative tablescape that we’re going to use to have a meal from at the end of the class, 

Cedric and I have been teaching this class together, we taught one at Penland. And, you know, there’s these really intense highs and lows when people are just like ready to give up. And they hate the things that they’ve made. Or like you said, something hit the floor, and they literally cried about it. But then all of that melts away when they see the table that they’ve made together, and then we share a meal off of those wares. And they realize the power of collaboration. And they realize that like the thing that has been so amazing about the last two weeks has not been the straightness of the cups that they’ve been making. But it’s been the connection to the people that they’ve been working with. Because of that thing we’re talking about with glassblowing earlier where it’s like you get these really strong, quick bonds. And then we share this meal at the end that just like tricks them into forgetting all of the hardship that they’ve, you know, faced over the last couple of weeks trying to figure out how to keep a bubble on center. And now all they can think about is like how much better this wine tastes out of this janky ass cup that I made, because I made it with all of these people here who saw me struggle, you know. And so that’s just one example. But I think if we can, in education and in, you know, institutions of cultural preservation, museums, galleries, focus less on objects, and technical prowess, and more on experience and community engagement. And I think we’re starting to see a tendency toward that. But I think that that could do a lot for creating more equitable spaces. That’s one side of it. For me, the other side that we’re sort of talking around here is this idea of representation. And I think that it’s a lot easier for people to see themselves in spaces or roles that they might aspire towards. If there are people already in those spaces in roles who look like them, you know, if you are trying to learn this thing, and you know, you’re a young Black artist, and there’s just nobody who looks like you, you might think then, “This isn’t for me.” Or you might not have ever even heard of that thing. You know, it’s like, you could take it back even further. There’s this idea of representation, but then there’s also awareness of these opportunities. And, you know, “Why are there not so many Black glass artists?” Well, because we don’t know that that’s even an option for us. You know, that we haven’t seen people who look like us in those positions. And we, our parents certainly haven’t heard of a successful Black glass artist before. And it’s rare for somebody to get support from their family. If there’s not something they can point to as an example of how a successful outcome might look. So yeah, those are the two things I think about: it’s this idea of moving away from perfection and towards experience and ensuring that all sorts of people are represented in education and higher learning.

vanessa german  

It’s really important to me what you said about emphasizing experience, and emphasizing experience centering, like relationship and togetherness. And that also brings me back to this place about kinship and how I said like that, like hyper intimate kinship, and in that way that you can invite people into an experience with themselves, like what is success for you? How do you want to be in a relationship with this space, and with other human beings in this space, and inviting people into that… a really intentional relationship with their kinship with themselves in that space and how they want to have an experience? I am, like, self-taught, community-taught, mother-taught, soul-taught, and I visit a lot of college and university campuses in my practice, and there’s always this time. And a lot of times, it’s like a Beginning Studio art class where the students are competing with each other and competing with me. A lot of times, it’s like beginning students, like performing what it is to “be an artist” or performing what it is to… have performing their ideas. And there’s a kind of like competition, ambition, stack, that sort of can happen. And, and sometimes it’s been very intense, where students fight, and they have to call the class off, or people hurt each other in critiques.

And there’s, I think, parts of… I have this other friend, I don’t know if you know, like the curator, Eric Shiner. But Eric, when people talk to him about studying, he asks them why they want to do that? And it’s interesting that people say that they will get like better positions, or be able to make more money. But it’s not. There’s not a sort of centering on the fact that you are experiencing your life at the same time, like you are alive In this educational environment. You are having a whole human living experience, you are developing relationship skills, all of these other things are happening, and how do we… you know, like, I always just want to invite more wholeness into spaces. But I do recognize we live in a culture where it has been really dangerous for people like you, Corey and Cedric and myself, to seek to expand wholeness and spaces. Like it has been dangerous for us. And so for me, the educational environment is only strengthened by inviting every human being to be as whole as possible in that, and that means inviting them to be intentional about experience. And I feel like it’s more important than… like, I have not thought about it that way before, like you said, but I wonder what, I think it’s something that you’re doing, that you both do. And I find sometimes that there’s like rigidity in academic environments, there’s a lot of rigidity around the shapes that people can occupy, people’s roles. And then there’s all this protection around roles, and around like shape and permission and authority and agency that I experienced to be quite painful. I feel like there are shapeshifted environments of instruction, and experiential learning that exist. And a lot of them are just indigenous, really. 

Emily Leach

We took a little break here, and Corey stepped away for a moment. What follows is an excerpt from a conversation with vanessa and Cedric.

vanessa german

Hey, Cedric, can I ask you a question? Cedric? Are you frozen?

Cedric Mitchell

Yeah.

vanessa german

Cedric?

Cedric Mitchell

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

vanessa german

Are you by any chance in love?

Cedric Mitchell  

Yes, I’m in love.

vanessa german  

Will you tell me about it?

Cedric Mitchell

[laughs]

vanessa german

You can talk generally or whatever you want.

Cedric Mitchell  

Um, yeah, so I’m actually engaged. I’m gonna get married.

vanessa german  

I love love! Oh my god! How did you propose? Who proposed?

Cedric Mitchell  

Who proposed? I did!

I proposed at the Golden Gate Bridge in May.

vanessa mitchell

Oh, my god.

Cedric Mitchell

Um, yeah, my fiancee…

vanessa german  

Were you scared?

Cedric Mitchell

No, I wasn’t scared.

vanessa german

Had you already talked about marriage?

Cedric Mitchell  

Yeah, we talked about marriage. Some of the conversations went well, some of them didn’t. Only because it’s just, you know, growing up and not having the example of, like, a successful marriage. My dad was in prison, probably like 30 years out of my 36 years of me being on Earth. And my mom’s been a single parent, you know, all my life. And it wasn’t really like a lot of examples in the home of like, like… a father figure or a husband or how to be that. So just learning how to be and become that.

So when I first met my fiancee, I wanted to do something different. And that was: “what does love mean?” So it was like a journey of like discovering what love means to different people. So asking people, you know, that question like: “what does… love mean?”

And what I came up with is, you know, it’s something that you become. So you become love, and you find love, and then the beauty and all the things around you, and just become a loving being.

And asking those questions to people was pretty interesting. You know, I asked, my grandma. Didn’t get the answer that I expected at all.

vanessa german  

So, do you feel like your grandmother has been loved?

Cedric Mitchell  

I feel like the love that she experienced maybe came from family. You know, like her grandchildren, her children, and being a loving like grandmother to us. It just brought up so many other questions in this journey of, like, when people talk about old school love and all that and you like what, what does that even mean? Like? Was that…

vanessa german  

Hold on a second, because you said when I met my fiancee. When you met them, they weren’t your fiancee.

Cedric Mitchell

No.

vanessa german

So did you know, like, did you have an experience… My brother got married during the pandemic, and he said he knew when he saw her, he was like, “Oh my god, like, this is the woman I’m gonna marry.”

Like, did you have an experience like that? Or did you all become each other’s through the relationship? Like, did you… did you have a really special…

Cedric Mitchell

It was both. The first conversation…

vanessa german

It was love from the first conversation?

Cedric Mitchell  

I told her, I was like, “You are gonna be my future wife.” So it’s kind of like knowing without really knowing that, like, this is gonna be this is it, you know, and then leaning into love and then realizing that, you know, fear and love can’t exist in the same space.

So eliminating fear of like, “Oh, what if and all this.” And just leaning into it. So like, we went on the first date…

vanessa german  

Really quick: you can’t brush by that!

Were your “What Ifs” about your capacity to love or were your ifs fear based? Were your “What Ifs”, like, “what if she cheats on me?” What if this? Or was it like did you have the capacity to love?

Cedric Mitchell  

I felt like I was in… I was in a space right then where I was in a capacity to love. Like I’ve been through enough things in life that I was just ready to like lean into love and let go of fear. Of like what the “What Ifs,” like eliminate that.

Because it’s something that I haven’t even experienced yet. So it’s an experience that I have to… I have to go through in order to feel it.

So I was willing to go through all those things to discover that love.

vanessa german  

Thank you so much for sharing that.

Cedric Mitchell  

No problem.

vanessa german  

I really appreciate it.

I feel like I really celebrate y’all, and that you have like really lifted up my heart in a way. Cedric, thank you for sharing personally about love and the questions like that journey that you went on to discover about love, I feel like that’s something that I kind of had to do in a way to save my own life. And I think it’s really beautiful that you’re able to share openly about that, because I haven’t actually talked to a Black man about love like that. Ever. And I don’t know what made me ask you if you were in love. I think it’s because I’m in love and this one talk about love.

But I really appreciate that and I celebrate your lives, I celebrate your loves, I celebrate your friendship that you have with each other. And I hope that your friendship is like a model for people that you can have a friendship like you two have, where you where you create in the world in a way.

Corey Pemberton  

Do you all see definitions between art, activism, and acts of wellness?

When I hear this question, I sort of think in terms of definition like lines, are there divisions almost between these things? Or do you sort of see them intertwined or feeding off of one another? Can you… can you talk about that?

vanessa german  

I don’t see where it’s necessary to have separation between these things. I feel like we’re in the structure of a civilization that separates everything. And I feel like white supremacy relies on separation.

And so I resist definitive singular spaces for art, activism, and acts of wellness, as an act of restorative justice to my soul, and as a radical centering of wholeness. And recognizing also, that it is really new, in the human timeline to separate art, activism, and acts of wellness, that’s a new thing. And who does it serve? Who’s served by separating art, activism, and acts of wellness? What does that serve? We are served by connection. We know science tells us like neuroscience talks about like what happens to your brain and your nervous system when you are creating? Like you heal faster if you create in togetherness, like there’s so much science behind the… the wholeness of these spaces.

Corey Pemberton  

I feel like when we start to create those divisions, that’s when these things start to feel like chores, you know, when the activism is a side piece to your daily practice, or that act of wellness is something that you have to squeeze in, when, in the little bit of time that you might have left at the end of the day, rather than considering those things as just like a part of your life. And furthermore, there’s you know, like you were saying, it’s a product of this ugly, supremacist sort of society that is just… we don’t need to be a part of anymore. It’s like this… There’s so much emphasis, especially as artists, placed on achieving, you know, having our heads down in the studio and like trying to get to the next. Next thing, the next big show the next line on the resume, and it’s crippling, It’s stifling, it makes Us and Them, whereas if we could just focus more on integrating activist work or acts of wellness into our daily practice, they would energize us rather than deplete our energy source.

Cedric Mitchell  

I feel like they’re all connected… They don’t need to, they don’t need to be separated. Especially like watching vanessa’s talk, you know, that was… felt like they’re all connected, you know, in her work and what she does. And then same with Corey, and his work, and his painting practice. I’m more of an object maker. But, you know, the other work is we’re connecting with the people and in teaching or having these events where we’re bringing these people together. Like I said, again, it’s all connected. I don’t feel like these things need to be separated into different categories or anything like that.

Corey Pemberton  

And you say, Cedric, that you’re an object maker, but I know you personally and I know that you’ve decided that you were going to make more time for these other things that give you life. You know, you’re… you’re spending less time in the studio making objects so that you can focus more on planning the next year Better Together. That’s, I mean, is that true for you that these things you’re learning are just as important too, as all that other stuff?

Cedric Mitchell  

Yeah, I mean, yeah, you’re right. Thank you for correcting me. Yes, I mean that… that is what really gives me joy. Um, you know, connecting with people in those levels, and being a reference point. And that’s, that’s sort of like activism as well showing up and being this figure, you know, that wasn’t there when I first started, um, so that that’s mainly the reason why I even stayed with it and chose this career path, you know, so it’s a longer game, but it’s something that is needed, it was needed. I was needed. We were needed, for us to show other people that, you know, they can do things outside of the norm that we’re showing in our communities. It just feels good.

vanessa german  

It’s so beautiful. I can feel it inside of me when you said we were needed. Did you hear yourself say that Cedric: “we were needed”?

Cedric Mitchell  

Yeah. I mean, that was, it’s absolutely right. We were needed. And even us being in this space right now talking to each other, connecting with each other. And learning from each other. Like, it’s, it’s special for me. Every time I hear somebody talk, I get emotional. You know, like, I’m gonna cry. I’m a crier.

Corey Pemberton

You can cry!

vanessa german

I remember being in the street after Mike Brown was killed. I remember what it was like to be a part of Black Lives Matter when it first started. And I remember being in the movement. So this is… I’m opening this up from my experience and how competitive it was in the movement, how people wanted to be the person on the cover of the newspaper with their fist up, or they would get mad if somebody else had the megaphone, or was getting attention as an activist in a certain way. And people were hurting each other actively in the, you know, in my experience, from where I was at that time, and what happened that shifted for me. And, and increased my insistence on dissolving boundaries between spaces was when the young woman made the call in August — of I think 2016 — for people to come to Standing Rock. And she was like, “just come and be on the land with us.” And I was like, “Wait, I don’t have to, like bring my protest gear on? To bring a megaphone? Like the protest is me being myself on the land?” That’s the thing itself, that is the act of wellness, that is the activism that is the work of art, to be in community myself with you just there, that’s all I have to do is go sit with you by a fire and eat, and we talk and walk around? Now I was like, “I’m there.”

I drove 2000 miles when she made that message, you know, and when I got to Standing Rock, I was one of, you know, three Black people on the land. And people would come up to me and they didn’t say, “What are you doing here? Why are you here?’ Or like, ‘there’s not a lot of Black people here”. But what the Native people would say to me, the question they would ask is, “how far did you come?” And I would say “I drove 1900 miles,” and they’d say, “You came a long way to be here with us. Thank you.” And it was the first time I experienced being the thing itself just by being myself.

And so I… that shifted how I thought about protest activism, like what I do with my body, because I figured the truest form of activism that I could engage in is actually love and love out loud. And then that caused me to investigate ways that love is lived, how I live love through my body through my life, and what it means to be openly, actively loving in this culture, because I couldn’t find any other form of protest, disruption, or like occupying space that was more active and profound and more violent to the lie of separation, than actively loving myself and other human beings in any given space. So, why reinforce any boundary or separation between art activism, and acts of wellness, because the ultimate activism is towards a living justice. And yes, we do have to put language to what a living justice is in relationship to the history of this experience on this land. But ultimately, and like… and also just to not be in exhaustive pursuit your whole life. I’m always fighting. I’m always doing this.

Like, what if you just being Cedric where Cedric is, loving where Cedric is, crying when Cedric wants to cry, inviting people in when Cedric is ready to invite people in, loving Corey and saying so out loud: what if that is everything? And it happens to be that what you’re sharing is glass, and glassblowing, and some food and some space. And you’re not saying, “Okay, now we’re gonna go take over the freeway,” because you have taken over the space of your own life, and your own imagination. You’ve actually retrieved yourself from separation. And I… And I think that there is just a tremendous space of opportunity to resist boundaries around, to resist these sorts of spaces of separation in so many parts of our lives, but also deeply internally, right? For me, that is something that I seek to do, like, I honestly will tell you, like, I’m a human romantic, and I desire, I honestly do, desire to love everyone in every space that I’m in, and to love myself, and to allow myself the space to be kind in every space that I’m in and to be warm, and to be heart centered in every space that I’m in.

And I know, because I’m heart centered, that means that I respect the boundaries that I have for my own being. That it’s like… it is something that is… is something that I’m also always becoming inside of. But what better form of wellness is there then to be deeply involved in that which you love the most creatively, and then to share that and to offer experience into that. For people who feel disconnected or connected to it already. I don’t know what I was doing sometimes, when I was in the street, I don’t actually know what I thought the goal was. But I had to be, I had to reckon with that. In a real way. There are so many spaces to be created, for our future selves to inhabit, without any boundary or separation between what wellness is, activism is an art. Because the ultimate art is happening at the scale of your entire existence. Your entire life. Thanks for letting me figure that out.

Corey Pemberton  

I aspire to do what you talk about: make art, on that scale.

vanessa german  

But you do realize that you are, right? You do realize that you are both social sculptors, in a way  that you are working at the scale of life? You’re working at the scale of community within the infinite technologies of the heart? Like anytime you intentionally bring people together to create. You do realize how powerful that is? And that was like the tenet of our indigenous cultures. You cooked together, you created together, you gathered materials together, and you so easily seamlessly, for the lungs of the community, shared what you knew.

You didn’t hoard what you knew. And you couldn’t hoard what you know, because hoarding, being greedy with your wisdom and being greedy with your heart means that the community suffocates and starves to death. So you are operating on the grand scale of social sculpture like you’re creating a world that is a work of art.

Cedric Mitchell  

I need to talk to you every day.

Corey Pemberton  

I want to go to the church of vanessa.

vanessa german  

I’m gonna tell you something like one of the things that I’m gifted at, is reflecting back to people what they actually… what they are., Like, all I’m saying to you is like, this is what you’re doing. This is who you are, this is what’s happening. And now you can take, if you feel anything of what I say: how will you move more intentionally, then? Like, what will shift for you knowing that you are doing the grand work of social healing, social sculpture, and also deep restoration to what is really truly indigenous, and original to us, as human beings, that’s what you’re doing, you’re returning the circle.

That’s what you’re doing.

Which means also, let’s be honest, that you were called to do it. Because not everybody is returning the circle. Not every glassblower you know, not every artist, you know, is making the connection and gathering human beings into circle, into spiral, the way that you are, which means you are divinely equipped to do what you’re doing. So how then do you recognize other circle keepers when you bring people together? Are you recognizing in young people the carrying capacity to restore the circle? And are you speaking that into them and saying, “Hey, I see this in you,” you know? And are you looking at what ingredients of love you’re working with? Because recognize that you are doing things that other people could be doing, but they are not.

Corey Pemberton

Or could be doing — but don’t do it as well.

vanessa german

Yeah, that’s true. They… Some people do it and they cause harm, right? And they do it and it’s performative. Maybe it’s for the grant, or whatever. So I say that, just like deeply encouraging all the work that you do in your life, because it’s so clear to me, that… This might just sound… whatever. It is so clear to me that you’re chosen to do the work that you do, because you’re also doing it at this time. Look at how divisive the world is right now. Look at what you’re doing at this time, at this place. And look how well you do it. Look how doors open up for you. And people call you. And they ask you to do it in different places. Which means you’re protected in the journey also. Because you need to be protected in the journey that you’re on. So I thank you all so much. You’re so beautiful. And I just really want to work with you all one day, I want to be in community with you. I want to be close to where you are.

Corey Pemberton  

Oh, same girl, same. What you’re saying resonates with me so much. It’s just… somebody said, I don’t know who said this to me. But somebody said to me once that they teach because they’re good at it. And they teach because they feel an obligation to, because there’s so many people out there who do it and aren’t good at it. And are teaching the wrong things to the right people. And, I don’t know, I feel I feel that way about this, this work. Sometimes, where sometimes, you know, on most days it does energize me, and it does feed me, but I’m on other days and I know that Ced can relate to this, It’s hard. And there’s no time for it. But like we have to do it because… we’re good at it. You know it’s like you said we were chosen to do it in a way, and not to sound any type of way but I just I just… That resonates with me.

vanessa german

To speak into the dream space, I would really love to work with you two. I’d really love to create and share space together. I think that would be a great next step. I look forward to that.

Corey Pemberton  

Same. We can definitely make that happen.

Yeah, I’m sorry, I was crying on the inside thinking about how I want to hug vanessa.

vanessa german

I’m going to be in LA in two weeks!

Corey Pemberton

In two weeks? Alright, hit us up.

[MUSIC: Otis McDonald – Sunday Skate in Golden Gate]

Emily Leach

Stay tuned for closing thoughts from vanessa, Corey and Cedric.

To learn more about upcoming exhibitions, follow vanessa @vanessalgerman on instagram. Follow Better Together at @bettertogether_ctf or @crafting_the_future to find upcoming Better Together events; Corey Pemberton is at @instantglassic and Cedric Mitchell is at @cedricmitchelldesign.

The GEEX Talks Q&A is produced by Emily Leach (that’s me!) and Ben Orozco.

Our theme is “Refraction” by Podington Bear, with additional music from Otis McDonald.

A huge thank you to the GEEX Talks Subscribers for your continued support and engagement! 

Your questions shaped this conversation. They’re available on the show notes on our website, where you can listen to all our episodes and all three seasons of the GEEX Talks lecture series. Make sure to share questions for speakers via email to questions@geex.glass.

Learn more about subscribing to GEEX talks on our website: geex.glass/support.

If you haven’t subscribed to GEEX Talks yet, there’s a three-month public access period  — visit the GEEX Glass YouTube channel to listen and enjoy Better Together and vanessa german’s lectures before they’re archived on December 19, 2022, and January 23, 2023.

We have a shop where you’ll soon be able to purchase merch inspired by each GEEX Talks lecture. Proceeds will support speakers along with our work!

Thanks to our sponsors this episode!

In business since 1996, Wet Dog Glass delivers unsurpassed value and turnkey hot glass studio equipment, studio planning and consultation, and technical support. Wet Dog Glass: your studio’s best friend. Learn more at wdg-us.com.

Pittsburgh Glass Center cultivates an inclusive and welcoming environment that encourages everyone – from the casually curious to the master artist – to learn, create, and be inspired by glass. PGC shares their passion for glass locally and globally to advance a more diverse, vibrant, and accessible glass art community. In her GEEX Talks lecture, vanessa spoke extensively about her experience at PGC’s IDEA Furnace residency program. I would highly encourage you watch the lecture and learn more about PGC at www.pittsburghglasscenter.org.

The GEEX Talks Q&A Podcast is supported by a Craft Research Fund grant from the Center for Craft. The Craft Research Fund is a visionary program dedicated to supporting scholarly craft research in United States. Center for Craft supports academic and artist researchers, independent scholars, curators, and graduate students writing, revising, and reclaiming the history of craft.

Thanks so much for helping GEEX offer more histories and establish new legacies in the field of glass.

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Stay tuned for two more episodes this season: “Migration, Boundaries and Belonging: Oppositional Histories on Glass and Race” is coming in February 2023 and “Reframing Antiquity: Ways of Knowing and Being” in May 2023.

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[MUSIC decays]

vanessa german  

For any artists who feels alone or disconnected or without community: your community is waiting for you and you will find your people and you will be able to have connection. As you desire that and your work is important. It’s important to the world. and that you’re important also. So I’m grateful to the artists, and I’m grateful to teachers. And I believe that we are making a future where we can all be whole, and loving, and courageous and safe at the same time.

Corey Pemberton  

Beautiful, beautifully said, I just want to echo that, and share a little anecdote about a moment that sort of cemented me in my decision to be an artist. And it was I took a workshop with a painter called Holly Roberts. And this was after focusing really intensely on glassblowing for maybe 10 years or so and wanting to return to painting. And I had zero confidence in myself as a painter, I had instructors in college who told me that I couldn’t pay in fact, and that that’s actually part of why I switched to glasses. I had a professor who told me I didn’t have what it took to make it in the Communication Arts program. And so that really stuck with me and I was struggling and I couldn’t bring myself to even finish a painting.

And this instructor of mine, Holly Roberts, she said, to me, that I just need to trust myself, and that there’s so much value in my style, and that I’m an amazing painter, I just need to believe that and that I need to let go of this idea of trying to be like somebody else and just trust myself. And so I want to put that same energy back out into the world and hope that other people can hear that and trust themselves.

Cedric Mitchell  

Beautiful. I’m grateful for all of you guys and being here. Um, what I would say is, you know, just step out of the space of fear and just lean into love, and, you know, leave people better than you found them. That’s it! [laughs]

Corey Pemberton  

Campsite! [laughs]

Cedric Mitchell

For real.

Emily Leach

Thanks so much to Cedric, Corey, and vanessa. I’m really excited to see what grows from this conversation, and so grateful for all that you shared.

Coming in February 2023: “Migration, Boundaries and Belonging: Oppositional Histories on Glass and Race” featuring Dr. Kerry Sinanan and King Cobra, documented as Doreen Garner.

BACK TO PODCAST PLAYER

Selected questions from the audience:

• INTRO: Can you talk about what kinship means to you and your practice? From GEEX Staff.
• ORGANIZATIONAL MODELS: Thinking about how structures can support and reinforce kinship: How do you develop equitable community spaces? What guidelines, tenets, or community agreements were used in the development of CTF (Crafting The Future) and Better Together? What were some agreements for the ArtHouse? Were there resources (info, frameworks, etc.) from other organizations you looked at during programmatic development, and could you expand on that process?
• LEARNING FROM THE MARGINS: How does this work integrate backward into education in glass as well? How do we reshape the educational environments where glass is learned?
• COMMUNITY: Art school can have a kind of dog-eat-dog, individual mentality. How can we invite a more collaborative, supportive, community environment in art education?
• DELINEATION: Do you see definitions between art, activism, and acts of wellness?
• LOVING INSTITUTIONS: What was one of your favorite moments from a residency program? A subscriber mentions: “The directive that art institutions should be centers of love and joy is very powerful – it is such a great thing to provide that moves away from logistics, meeting goals, and statistics for the staff.” Have you seen models in the world of foundations and funding that are supportive of quality of experience vs quantitative data?
• ALTERNATIVE SPACES: How do you seek support for openly engaging art outside of the institution, that impacts neighbors and community members in the streets and sidewalks and front porches, rather than the museum?
• CONVERSATION: Artmaking as a way to describe and treat mental health issues is commonly experienced, but maybe not expressed. How can we break down stigmas concerning mental health, and include a more open dialogue about mental health, trauma, and struggles in our work and communities?
• VISIBILITY: How has representation (or a lack thereof) affected your development as artists?
• ADVICE: What do you wish you were told when becoming an artist? 
• INFLUENCE: What is one of the most powerful moments in your life that shaped you into the artist you are today?
• SHIFTING STUDIO GLASS: What does Shifting Studio Glass Histories mean to you? What does it mean to recenter the history or future of glass, craft, and art? What would you like to focus on instead?
• WHY GLASS?: What is it about the material or process that drew you towards working with or in this field?

Thanks to educators and learners from UW-Madison, Urban Glass, Ohio State University, and Hastings College for sharing questions! Learn how to become a Subscriber here.

Theme music by Poddington Bear. Additional music in this episode by Otis McDonald.

Edited and produced by Emily Leach and Ben Orozco.