Victoria Ahmadizadeh Melendez

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DYANI WHITE HAWK  

Hello, my name is Dyani White Hawk.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

Hi, my name is Victoria Ahmadizadeh Melendez.

So my general impressions of your practice, Dyani, from your talk… Well, I walked away with a huge impression of your practice seeking to decenter European-American influences in the art world, and bringing in the influence of your culture. And I really connected to that, because right now I’m at an artist residency at the Corning Museum of Glass. I’m researching both Islamic glass and lighting devices. But the research on Islamic glass comes from being half-Persian, and being really curious about what was made in present day-Iran, you know, in terms of ancient glass, and really discovering these amazing objects in the museum with all of these really sophisticated techniques that I feel like I walked out of school, believing that the Venetians invented all these techniques or whatever. But then it turns out that these people in Iran and Iraq and Syria in the 13th century are making all of these things that are really sophisticated and elaborately gilded and decorated in a way that with today, with so much technology would be incredibly difficult to do. And so this not giving credit to other cultures that aren’t European cultures, or traditions, you know, I really strongly relate to that. And I think I have to fight that programming in myself, because of the education system that I went through. And in relation to your work, your influence that you bring to abstraction is so valuable. And, you know, tactile and juicy and amazing. It makes me really happy that you’re able to integrate so much of your life experience into those works. And I found that very compelling.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

I love hearing that it was so timely with your residency and the things that you’re exploring, and that connection between what we’ve been taught or the way that these histories have been taught up until now, the way that those stories have been taught versus the wider truth of our experiences, because that’s really all it is, right? It’s not like, it’s not rewriting history, it’s not creating new narratives. It’s just opening up the narratives to be inclusive and honest.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

In school, it’s not like anyone said, “These people didn’t do this, or didn’t invent this, or didn’t come up with this.” It’s just that they weren’t mentioned at all.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

Exactly. Or, in the case of Native artwork, too — it’s that they’re mentioned, but they’re mentioned in other classes, and they’re something different than “art.” They have different categories, different galleries, in museums, and different distinctions of something other than art with a capital “A”, right? And then, in regards to contemporary or modern art, when [Native art] is mentioned, it’s always mentioned as the European painter… the European artist who is deemed the genius for looking at indigenous art, as opposed to like the environment. So the genius all lands on the influenced as opposed to the influencer. There’s… you know, there’s reasons they were influenced by the work. The work is strong. And so I would love to… I love hearing this about your experience. And it makes me excited to know that that’s a part of your journey right now, as well. And it also makes me excited to see some of the work that you’re talking about some of the historic work that you’re talking about that’s, you know, a part of your lineage and the way that it will play out in your practice. That’s terribly exciting to me.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

Thank you so much. Yeah, it’s been really empowering to go through the 35 Centuries gallery here and be like my ancestors came up with a lot of these techniques that I use today.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

My response to watching the video on your work. I really appreciated the fact that you shared your practice both as teacher, instructor, mentor, and maker because they are all related, and intertwined, and I feel like there are threads between the way that you teach and the outreach work that you’re doing in your artistic practice, to me feel linked in ways that I think are maybe not completely obvious, but But the way that I thought about it is… First of all, I just want to say I really admire the Bead Project, I think it’s fabulous work, I was extremely excited to learn about it. I love that there’s continuity through the program, you know, that students can come in, and be introduced to this practice that I feel like is pretty inaccessible at large. I mean, unless you’ve got somebody that’s taught you how or a studio adjacent to wherever you happen to be, that, you know, provides you with these materials like so it to me, it feels like a fairly inaccessible practice. So creating access, and then creating continuity to access and steps through a journey where people can not only learn how to work with this material, but can build their own practices, and then have a mentorship role within the program, and then be able to just this, you know, this continuous thread feels like it provides a real grounding, as opposed to just like a pop in experience, you know, so, I really admired that, when you switched over to speaking about your artistic practice. And part of this might come from me just being somebody who works so much in beads, and in repetition, and in creating works, that are made from many parts, to create the whole, that’s the part to me that feels connected. So you’re working with students, you’re creating, you know, singular beads, you’re creating singular objects, and, and then through that, you know, the culmination of this project is like, “Okay, you have to create as enough beads to share with the entire community of the class that’s here,” right? And that’s the larger story. And then in your practice, the assemblage of many parts to tell this larger story of the poetry, you know, of your writing of your work of these longer thoughts. For me, that was, that was a really interesting connection, that you wouldn’t necessarily know, if you’re walking up to an installation, you wouldn’t necessarily know this link until unless somebody knew you personally. So I found that really intriguing in this particular format to be able to kind of like, pair these practices together. And the way that I feel like they’re, they’re somewhat related, and I don’t know if you think about it in that way, but I appreciated that connection.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

No, yeah, I’m glad that you came away with the impression that my educational practice and my artistic practice are linked, I do really feel that you know, something about my practice, too, is that I work with the material glass in a few different ways, like I do glassblowing, and flameworking. And also, neon now is a big part of my work. And then there’s like, other techniques that maybe aren’t a major part of my practice, but will come into play on occasion. I think a big reason why all those things remained in my work was because I teach, and I’m called upon to teach all these different techniques so frequently, and I’m in this educational space where you know, I have access to the equipment and to continue to learn and grow to in that space. And it’s kind of like, I’m always going to be a lifelong student of the material. And in the Bead Project, specifically, I think the students, you know, appreciate that I’m really vocal about stuff like that class never gets easy, per se, or, because the stuff you want to make then just gets more ambitious and more complex as you build skill. But yeah, to talk about the Bead Project, the 10 weeks of practice, having access to the studio for that long, it really is what it takes just to get your foot in the door. And it’s true, if you take like a one-time one-day class, that’s a really wonderful enriching experience, but it might not be like a… “I might do this for the rest of my life”-kind of experience.

I also think about your paintings using beadwork as kind of like a foreground object. And then you’ll even talk about the canvas as the painted background. And I find that super interesting as someone like I like to pair images and objects a lot in my installations and have them kind of like inform and talk to each other. So I was thinking about that a bit in your work. And I was also kind of wondering how much the painted surface interacts with the transparency of the beads, like if you feel like that’s something you have to you know, kind of like test and plan for as you’re working on a piece.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

I’m going to answer the transparency question first because it’s shorter. I utilize a lot of non-transparent beads. I love a good opaque bead! I also use a lot of silver-lined beads because they’re not as transparent. You know, they have a transparent makeup of the glass, but then there’s the sill lining that impedes your ability to completely see through it, or even beads with an iridescent finish because that also blocks your ability to completely see through the bead. But the pieces that I have in the studio right now are going to do just the opposite that we’re just starting right now, utilizing all completely translucent beads so that I can play with the relationship of the underpainting to the clear bead. And that also comes from experiments in the painting, which is interesting too, because underpaintings play very important roles within my compositions, like they are a part of the composition as opposed to just a field of neutral color to make the thing on top of. And so because my underpaintings have been such an important part of the composition themselves, like they become a part of the geometry, right. And then there’s times, like when I made paintings where the underpainting shifts, but the foreground of the painting stays exactly the same continuous throughout the whole thing. And the geometry that takes place is determined by the underpainting. And so this next body of work that is going to come out of the studio will be playing with that idea, but with the translucent bead, as the thing that is on the top and the underpainting as the thing that creates the geometry. So I’m excited about those, you know, I’m looking forward to it because up until now I’ve been putting those translucent beads over there, like they’re gonna, they’re gonna get messed up. And then as far as the beadwork in the foreground, that’s… It’s something that I’ve also utilized conceptually, there are pieces that, like there’s a series of what looked like arches over stripe paintings. And those are part of a lineage of works where I was painting and beading motifs that looked like moccasin tops. So they weren’t this perfect arch, but they had the shape of like the foot or the vamp that you cut out before you saw a moccasin to the soul. And those forms, I had utilized those forms as like… Central standing figures without being married to the human figure, right like because once you start painting the body, then you get into specificity of age and gender and all the things that come with living in a body. So this form still allowed me to create something that has a central character that has agency that can be emotive, that can be super specific or super ambiguous depending on how it’s painted. And then there were times where I — a couple paintings specifically — where I was also painting the park that you would put your foot into. And the moccasin was like this doorway or entry point. Like it looked like a receding space you could get into these arches came later because they were a way for me to compound both those things, like have this still central standing figure that’s not a human, and also have this shape that could be like an entry point or a doorway, when I have beaded those over underpaintings that are are straight paintings, and allows me to talk about the history of abstraction and this continent in a way that the way that those stories have been told so far. So you see the beadwork first because it’s on the surface, you know where you’re going, if you go up to the piece, you’re generally going to look at the beadwork first. And then you go to the side and look or step back and look at the stripe painting that’s below it. And oftentimes, the beadwork is mimicking the palette of the stripe painting below it and it creates this ghost-like form. And so it’s a way for me to be able to ask people to think about the timeline. Like it’s reversing the timeline, like so far we’ve been taught here is abstraction. Abstraction is easel painting. Abstraction is European and European American. Oh, there’s also this influence in this interaction with indigenous art. That’s the sidebar. And for me, I’m saying here is abstraction done in beadwork. And that we’re going to talk about that history, maybe a little bit before we get into the underpainting. And then we’re also going to talk about it in relationship to the underpainting because those histories are intertwined and you cannot pull them apart. They do not arrive today, where they are independent of one another because we have coexisted. on this continent for a very long time, and our artistic histories have been influenced by one another, our communities have been intertwined in, in such inseparable ways that you can’t, they can’t be… They’ve been told as separate stories, they are not separate stories. Putting this beadwork on top of the painting allows me to be like, let’s talk about indigenous abstraction, you know, and and let’s also talk about easel painting abstraction. And let’s talk about the relationships between those things. And the hierarchies that have been created within art worlds that are reflective of our greater society, that have taught us that oil paint is higher than beads, that have taught us that easel painting abstraction is greater than indigenous abstraction. So it allows me to rearrange the hierarchies. And in an effort to create conversations that I hope move us towards more equal observation and valuation of human artistic practices that have all contributed to the richness of our field.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

Yeah, I sensed a lot of the things like the shape, the arch shape, being a figure in the foreground of the painting, like I definitely sensed and picked up on that. And portal doorway notion as well. Like, I definitely sense that too. And wondering, like, what is this beautiful, colorful space that this portal would lead me two or take me to, but this thing you just said about making it so that the beadwork is the first thing the viewer really is encountering and regarding and thinking about, that’s so powerful, that’s such a powerful gesture, and such a clever way to set up the viewer to do that, as well, you know, like, they can’t push it to the side as a separate narrative. It is completely intertwined and inseparable in these works.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that, too. It’s part of why, when I can make the paintings, you know, 84 by 60 inches, and hang them on gallery walls adjacent to their counterparts in painted abstraction. They become unavoidable. Right. And it allows me to create pieces that remind people that abstraction has a long and rich history among many communities, right? But you can’t walk around it, if it’s not, you’re not going to miss it. If it’s 84 by 60 inches, you’re not going to miss it. If it’s beaded straight onto the canvas, you’re not going to miss it, if it’s a sculptural piece that you have to walk around, you know, and so those are choices that I’m making that intentionally push back against the way that our work has historically been authored. Alright, so I have a question for you here. How do you balance the writing process with your sculptural work? And does your perspective shift during the transition from writing to a physical medium?

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

So the balance between my written process and sculptural work is actually a pretty tricky balance to maintain in my everyday life. I find with my teaching practice, and making practice, it’s hard to sit down and have the introverted reflective time I need to write poetry and prose. And the result is that I ended up doing it in passing a lot like I’ll jot things down, I don’t have a car, I take public transportation and stuff. So I’ll be on the bus and, and jot a couple things down, or I’ll be in between things and a thought will occur to me and I’ll jot it down. But the… The truth is that to have a really robust writing practice, you need to sit down in those moments where you’re not inspired and force yourself to sit there and, and get things to come out. And then you’ll be really surprised by what comes out. So I recently had felt like I really needed more of that to be happening. And so I did a residency over the summer at a really wonderful place called Blue Mountain Center in the Adirondacks. And I devoted that entire residency to writing and drawing, both things that had kind of like been very important things in my practice, historically, but in the past couple years with the pandemic and everything else kind of slipped by the wayside. So having that really dense time to write was phenomenal and reminded me how much I need that in my life and need that in my practice. Being here in a different residency that’s ultra glass-centric, and it’s all about blowing glass. I’m not really writing here, but I do look back at those things that I wrote over the summer and use them to make decisions and kind of play with the back and forth of it because it’s all still so new and fresh, too.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

Does your work… Does the visual portion of your work always start with writing?

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

It often starts with writing, but I do allow myself to have some back and forth. Like I think sometimes viewers will think like, “she always starts with a poem, and the poem is perfectly finished. And then she goes to the studio and decides these things she’s going to make to illustrate this poem.” And occasionally it does work like that. But sometimes the poem is like… a work in progress, too. And I’m making bits, you know, like, and the other thing I had mentioned about doing tests and kind of making things with glass intuitively, that then might kind of sit for a while until it connects to a written thought somewhere else. So there, it’s not always completely linear for sure.

Do you ascribe particular meanings to repeated motifs and materials in your work? Are these fixed meanings? Or are they more fluid meanings?

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

Both/and. There’s definitely motifs that have started with a particular conceptual underpinning or narrative that I have allowed myself to morph and change as, as I continue to use them, then they almost always, though, retain at least the beginning of that conversation for me, and then that may shift over time. But as far as materials go, for me, the you know, the two of the materials that are most frequently used within my practice are paint and beads. And for me, I love painting. And I love doing beadwork. I love making in many forms, but those are the two things that continuously bring me back that I crave, like deeply crave the processes of each of those things more than other practices that I also totally enjoy. But those are the two that I’m like… I have to do this thing to be happy. They are both inevitably embedded with meaning and history. And I bring those histories with me and utilize those histories as a part of the conceptual narratives of the work. When I am utilizing acrylic paint or oil paint on stretched canvas, I acknowledge the fact that I’m drawing from the history of, of easel painting, the history of European and European-American — in its origins anyways — stretched easel painting on canvas. That’s a particular practice of painting particular origins of human approach to pushing pigments around on a surface, because there are many histories of people pushing pigments around on surfaces. So I’m speaking to that particular history. I’m connected to that history. I’m a participant in that history. I admire that history. And I also, it gives also gives me opportunities to speak about the fact that it is not the only history of painting globally. And as a Lakota woman, I come from a very long line of female abstract painters. We painted on stretched hide, as opposed to stretched canvas. But that practice of painting and speaking through abstraction, is something that has been practiced on this continent long before it was dubbed, The American continent, North American continent. That’s something that, for me, is embedded within those mediums. When I utilize glass beadwork, and incorporate that glass beadwork into paintings, the histories that are embedded in those mediums, for me, speaks to the relationships on this continent between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people, and and how those intertwined histories have informed where our artistic history is today. So those glass beads are European-made European trade items, and they, you know, became some of the most coveted trade items on this continent between indigenous people and non-Indigenous people. For the women that were practicing porcupine quill work, or the parfleche painting that I was speaking about, or any of the other artistic means of production, when these glass beads became available through trade, they incorporated these into their already established artistic practices and ran with it’s so hard that now, when people think about beadwork, it’s almost synonymous with plains artwork, you know, when, like, if people are thinking about beadwork, they’re gonna go almost directly to North American Native plains, artwork, and African artwork, and you know, but it’s, it’s so it’s fascinating to me, that this material that wasn’t made by us was utilized so profoundly by us that now, these things are like completely connected now, right. And so I bring all of that history and that knowledge of, of human relationships and the way that those materials speak to artistic histories and relationships across cultures, and speak to practices of colonization, speak to practices of resilience through those traumatic histories. And all of that, for me, is carried into these mediums. And depending on how I manipulate those mediums, depending on how I create works that cause them to interact in different ways, I’m able to speak to the history of this land base, the way I’m connected to it, and then what I hope are conversations that we can have within the art world that help us continue to grow and think more critically about how we’ve been telling our story so far, and how we might tell them in a way that’s more honest, and in a way that thinks a little bit deeper than what we’ve been fed so far. One of the things that for me would be really interesting to hear about, and then I’m guessing would be interesting for the audience to hear about too, is some of the repeated symbolism that’s in your work. Like, I want to know why climbing ropes, you know, I was able to connect this word infinity, you know, with the kind of like, weaving that you’re doing with those ropes, but I just am guessing that there are probably more things embedded in that for you than what I’m seeing immediately. So I’d love to hear some about that… You do I feel like I got some information on the chains directly from the talk. One of the things that I thought about was “Why neon? Why neon chains?” You know, is it… as a painter, I’m just thinking to myself, is the choice, the moments of choices to create some of these things in glass, simply because you love to work with the medium because they, you know, I can identify with like, you know, well why do it in paint, I don’t because I love to paint or why do it in beadwork, because I love doing beadwork, or are there very, you know, conceptual choices that are driving those moments too. So any of that, you know that you had to repeat repeated motifs of chains and repeated motifs of the ropes and the weaving and knots. And then other things like that I just was interested in formally, like that last piece that looks like a frosted glass cube with almost like a bolt, like a spiral kind of cut out of it with the chains inside of that. Is it a weight…? Is it the weight of the meanings that are embedded in the reference of the chain for you? Like any of that that you want to offer us, I think it’d be really interesting.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

To speak to that piece, specifically: the cube with the frosted cube with the chain going inside the hole in the center. It’s like a portrait of a specific person, you know, and it was like someone I was romantically involved with. And it’s like the feeling of like, your like, your heart is like chained to them or like bolted to them. Or like when someone gets so inside of you that you know what I mean? Like, you feel like there’s like a hole going through you or something. I don’t know. Maybe others can relate to this, but the neon chains so there’s a couple things about neon. Like a curator here recently asked me “Why did you start making neon? Like, what got you into neon?” And part of it was watching my friends do it and be like, that’s really cool, you know, and it lights up at the end and that’s very rewarding and satisfying. Another part of it was that like when I had discovered neon I was kind of having a tough time and wasn’t sure that I wanted to do glasses anymore. Like, I kind of thought I might just drop out of the glass world and do more like sculpture. Part of it came from, you know, I like I had been in an abusive relationship with someone in the glass community. And then it was really hard to bounce back from that. And I kind of was just like, maybe I should just like, leave this space, you know. Because sometimes Glass Studios can be tough spaces to be in. And then the neon was like, this thing that introduced me to a whole new group of people who were very welcoming and inviting and very excited about what I would do with that element in my work and very giving in terms of their knowledge. And it just really, like hooked me back and kept me in the game and made me remember all the positive things about working with glass that come out of it and can happen. So it’s like, sometimes the joke I tell us, like neon was like the light at the end of the tunnel, or whatever, like, like I was like, if I just keep going through this dark tunnel, I’ll get to this better place. And I did it just, you know, time heals things, and it passed. For the chains, specifically, the repetitive motif of the chain. Part of it came from an idea of how neon works, when you wire it together, you can daisy chain, like connect units, we call one piece of neon a unit. So you can connect those together with wire and get them the current will run through it. So, thinking about this current running through this whole chain, and it being not only a physical represent a formal representation of a chain, but an electrical current is a chain that’s running through it, and circulating through the whole piece. The blue color of the chain… I had a friend to refer to it as the “sad blue chain,” which I really liked actually. I mean, it’s a sad, it’s a bitter… It’s a sad story. It’s a bittersweet story. It’s a story that has a happy ending eventually, but takes years and years to get there. It is like the ghost of the thing my mom had to give away to get here, you know. So that is like what I was thinking about the color choice and everything rather than just making it like a gold chain. And now I’ve made a couple like just have made a couple of newer neon pieces that are based on my mom’s charm bracelet, I took photos of her charm bracelet, and I’m patterning from those photos to be like, this is the silhouette of you know, she had silhouettes for each of her kids. And, you know, crop like across and musical instruments and all these little motifs that she felt really passionate about collecting and keeping and the rope question, the repetitive motif of the rope that comes up a lot to you people are always really curious about it. And I yeah, like, again, trying to do something visually that conveys endlessly circulating energy. Like I find that that kind of cycles and circulating energy are things that I think about a lot. And that pop up in my writing. Visually, I loved how when the pattern of the rope was staggered, it created the sense of movement. It’s like simultaneous contrast or something like it doesn’t quite hurt your eyes, but it boggles your eyes a little bit. I was connecting it to glassblowing. I love to do cane work, which is when we put stripes and patterns on the glass in this multi step process, but that’s very, you know, time consuming and expensive and limiting and scale and stuff like that. So yes, sometimes like choosing the other materials, it can be a matter of scale, wanting to get this idea across. Maybe there is a material besides glass. That’s better for this. There was a piece where I cast one of the knots, not motifs in glass, and it almost like freezes it in that in that moment. It’s like a recollection of that cycle or something like it’s almost like not an active cycle anymore. It definitely totally changes it.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

Yeah, in the state that it’s in: it’s no longer malleable. It’s yeah, set in that state. It implies it but it’s different than a rope that you could untangle if you wanted to. At least with less steps. (laughing)

DAN SCHWOERER  

There’s only one Bullseye factory. I’m Dan Schwoerer, one of the owners and founders of the company, which we started in 1974. Yeah, the factory really is a mixture of everything from 17th century glass making processes to 21st century electronic controls. But the basic forming of the glass is done the way it was done hundreds of years ago by simply ladling a gob of glass onto a rolling mill and rolling it into a sheet. So that hand individual attention is what really makes our glass what it is. It’s not machine-made. It’s hand-crafted.

EMILY LEACH  

Bullseye’s mission involves learning as much as possible about kiln-glass and then giving that knowledge away for the empowerment of artists and makers everywhere. Artist residencies at Bullseye Resource Centers and their Portland factory have afforded the opportunity to collaborate, experiment, ask questions, and push the boundaries of the material. Check out the Learning section on bullseyeglass.com to study an extensive archive of videos and articles about kiln-glass techniques and processes. To learn more about Bullseye Glass, visit their website: bullseyeglass.com.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

One of the other things that I thought was really interesting too, and you know, I realized I recognized I got a small introduction into your artistic practice. I saw that variation, you know, in the works, as I’m looking at these assemblages, and mean, just specifically, because we’re here on geeks talking about glass, and like, looking for the pieces of glassware, the different, you know, moments of glass with these within these installations. And, uh, you know, it did think about the variety of approaches that you’re using, to glass to create these assemblages that, you know, are extensions of of your writing, or interpretations are inspired by one of the things that it made me think about, and that I was interested in learning more about from you, the history that’s embedded in each of those practices. And that is also then embedded in the material itself, you know, the amalgamation of things that come together to create the material? And how much is that a part of the storytelling for you? Or is it more the object that has been made with the material? And so I guess I’m a little curious about, like, you’re making what feels like a lot of repeated symbolism in this repeated symbolism as part of the storytelling. Some portions are in glass, some portions are in other materials, the climbing ropes were a repeating material, and you have textiles and found objects and paper. And when you decide this particular thing needs to be made in glass, this part of the assemblage is made in glass, what’s spurring that decision? And why does that thing have to be glass? Like, why is it a glass candlestick as opposed to just a regular candlestick? Why are moments of it the actual climbing rope? And why are moments of it climbing rope molded in glass?

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

Yeah, that’s a big question. There’s a few questions embedded in that big question. Going back, kind of like to earlier in your statement, I was thinking, as you were talking, and I was thinking about the different ways of working with glass, I was thinking about this sort of form of hierarchy that tends to exist in the glass world, where maybe to someone in this field, blowing glass, like furnace work in the hot shop is like, a very prestigious way to work with the material or very a way that requires a lot of skill, and practice and apprenticeship and whatnot. And then, you know, other things like stained glass or beadwork with glass beads, will kind of be thought of as like, a lower way to work with the material or something. And I’ve never really understood that. And so like in using, like thinking about glasses, and all the different ways we can use this material, you know, I just think like, why not engage as much as possible. And I also think about my personality, I’m just so curious that I want to learn and, and so fascinated, I find that I keep restarting and learning a new kind of section of glassmaking. But it hasn’t ever felt like it’s held me back, it feels like it always propels me forward. Even though there’s these moments of being like, I don’t quite know how to work with the material this way, until there’s that repetition and practice, in terms of deciding when it’s going to be glass. Sometimes it’s very intuitive. Sometimes it does link up to the text and whatever is going on in the written word. Recently, I’ve been thinking of some of these assemblages, as kind of objects or sculptures that memorialize an interaction I’ve had with someone or like a story I’ve been told over and over again And by one of my parents and thinking about the object memorializing a moment or connection, like the two candlesticks that are joined by light, like I think about that piece is this like extreme gesture of vulnerability and softness. And I think about glass. And, you know, if it was like a bronze candlestick, maybe it wouldn’t quite be as soft and vulnerable. And I have been thinking about the role of blown glass really seriously in relation to my use of light in the past few years, where I just feel like setting up scenarios where the blown glass can glow from within or reflect and refract light, like I find those moments really compelling. And it might call out to me like this should be a moment that you use glass. But sometimes I make material tests in glass that’ll sit in my studio for years until I figure out the right time and place for that kind of idea or thing. That makes sense.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

I mean, we get to know what we’re doing at times and other times, be completely enraptured by the experimentation. You know, I mean, that’s part of why we come back, right?

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

I’m really curious to hear more, Dyani, about the moments in your work where the tactile three-dimensional bead, then shifts and becomes two two-dimensional mark-making on the canvas in your work. And kind of similarly to the question you asked me: how do you make that decision? I know, in your talk, you said sometimes it’s a matter of like, the pacing of your practice and time and the resources you have available in that sense, but I’m sure thinking about these concurrent histories. There’s other thoughts related to that as well.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

Yeah, it’s it all. There’s times when it kind of cracks me up, because it all ends up looping back to the origins of Lakota art forms. And, in particular, porcupine quillwork, which is the art form that predated beadwork. And, okay, let me backup. I don’t remember what’s in my talk. So there may be some things to get repeated. But I went to tribal college as an undergraduate and was taking painting classes and was also in traditional arts classes. And so I was doing beadwork. I was doing quilt work, I was doing parfleche work, and I was making large-scale abstract paintings on canvas. And then I got into graduate school and a mainstream University in the painting department. And so when I showed up there, I really thought I had to paint. You know, I mean, I learned as I was there, I could really do whatever I want. But what like, when I first got there, I didn’t know that, you know, I was like, Okay, I’m in the painting department, I gotta, you know, it’s time to paint. But what I’ve learned about myself is that when I’m only painting, I miss beadwork. And when I’m only doing beadwork, I miss painting. And so I had to start to… I had to figure out how to make them happen simultaneously for my own health and wellbeing from my, you know, to feed the creative urges that keep it all going. So I started experimenting with various ways to do that. And in a way that made sense for a studio practice in an MFA program. When I was at the BFA program at a tribal college, it was very normal for me to be simultaneously upholding these practices that conceptually were feeding each other, but didn’t need to necessarily coexist materially. And then, I was like, “Okay, how do I do this without just like making a pair of moccasins, you know, how do I make sure that I can appease these parts of my, you know, desired making?” And so I started playing with different ways to do that. And I went through a cycle of different experiments, and then ended up doing the first really successful piece incorporating porcupine quill work onto a large-scale, abstract painting. And then later, I brought beadwork into paintings, beadwork is faster than quillwork. Quillwork is very slow, very time-consuming, and they’re tiny increments. And it really contradicted and conflicted with the timeline of an MFA program. You know, what you’re expected to like, go through and get through. And I didn’t have time to do this thing that was so important to me. And so fundamental to look at the art and thinking and worldviews. And here I was in a graduate school program. The value system in the program and the value system in Western society was like, “Oh, no, you don’t have time for that thing. You’re gonna have to figure it out. It’s too slow. We’re gonna need you to be faster.” So I was like, you know, faced with really contradicting value systems. And then that ended up being much of the processing that I ended up digging into was like, Well, how do I negotiate that? How do I negotiate, you know, the value systems that are inherent in my being and my culture and my identity and the value systems that I exist within, within this graduate program within, you know, our culture today, and expectations of pace in our culture today, and productivity in our culture today, and what that looks like, in response to all of that I made my first painting that was mimicking quillwork, because it’s faster. And what was interesting about that is that I found that it allowed me to still bring forward a lot of the concepts that are embedded in coursework and, you know, be able to still bring forward those conversations that were really important to me. And because of the repetition of the way that I have to paint it, there’s still a connection to the repetition that it feels when you’re actually doing the physical practice. And so the kind of meditative quality is still similar. And so it’s like, oh, I still feel fulfilled by this thing, I still feel connected to this practice, only, I can make it much bigger now. It’s still not, quote-unquote, fast. By any means, though, you don’t want to mimicking beadwork or quillwork. And paint. They are not fast paintings, but they are faster than if I’m beading or quilling them. Because I have such an interest in and connection to the practices of painting and the practices of grillwork and beadwork. It’s this kind of continuously looping relationship between the three.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

Yeah, I think the mimicry of the beading in the paintings, it’s a really interesting way to keep that cultural idea in the work and pointing to it in a way that others will understand even though it’s not physically, the material we are used to recognizing.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

…There’s one other element to it that well, there’s more than one other element. But one of the things that it brings to mind as well as when I was studying, when I was in graduate school, and really playing catch up and diving into the history of European and European American easel painting. And learning about the areas within that history that I’m interested in, I figured out that the areas I was most interested in and drawn to were the areas of color field and Stripe painting. And it’s because aesthetically, they’re the most linked to Lakota and indigenous aesthetics. And so they felt familiar to me, they felt, you know, beautiful, because it was connected to an aesthetic history that I’m already in love with. Right. And then that’s when I, you know, that’s when I figured out that so many of those artists were inspired by indigenous arts globally, you know, it was like, Okay, well, of course, I love your work, because you look at it, this work. And it all makes sense. One of the things for me, when I was really like, asking myself the questions between Well, what is it that exists within like a Mark Rothko painting, and exists within a fully beaded dress that, to me feels connected. And part of that is the play on light. And part of it is the play on how our eyes are activated, when we’re looking at those pieces. So I have a similar feeling when I’m looking at a large field of beadwork on a beaded dress or a pair of leggings or something of the sort. I feel a physical response that is related, when I’m looking at that work, the work of you know of our ancestors or even relatives today. And when I look at, like a Color Field painting, because in a Color Field painting, you have layers and layers and layers of paint. And there’s these subtle and mild shifts in the color in the density of the color in the way that light reflects off of different areas. And so your eyes you can settle into this thing that is comforting and encompassing. But then like a singular color, right, but the more time you spend with it, the more it moves, the more it’s activated, the more that you see, right. And I feel a very similar effect when I look at a large field of beadwork because even if it’s all the same color, because of the repetition, because of the stacking, because of the shadowing that happens, because of this, you know, small increments stacked and compiled together, your eyes do the same thing. They’re both very activated, enriching and encompassing forms of art making. And so to me, that’s one of the biggest commonalities. And one of the things I’m thinking about and that I’m always striving to recreate in my own work. So when I’m creating those pieces, where I’m, you know, painting, these lines that mimic lane stitch beadwork, or that mimic porcupine quill work, and are related to stripe and color field paintings. It’s kind of like my approach to creating pieces that are connected to all these histories. I work very hard so that every piece feels activated, feels like it’s dancing, feels like it’s moving. Because for me, that’s one of the most fulfilling things for me to experience in an artwork, when I walk up to an artwork, and it feels like it has life it has breadth like that. That’s it for me. So I’m always looking to make that happen within my own work.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

I love that notion of like you want it to the surface to dance, sort of like I love that idea. And when I look at vast fields of pattern, I do feel like it’s so deeply encompassing, in a way and enveloping experience, the way that your eye searches for really subtle variations in this field of things.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

Victoria, thinking about beads and jewelry: what is the significance of adornment relative to your work? How do the many functions of jewelry as a collection as a resource, or as an aspect of cultural participation resonate with the kinds of work that you create?

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

So the first thing I think about with this question regarding jewelry and adornment is I think about my relationship with my mom. And we’ve already talked a little bit about her migratory experience. And the idea of this piece with the chain, retelling the story of her migration here. Nowadays, my mom loves to collect all kinds of stuff like costume jewelry, fine jewelry, different pieces. And it is definitely part of our relationship and how we relate to one another. And I’m sort of the person in the family who gets really excited about it with her. So that’s been a bond for us, which is really lovely. So in making work that references that part of our relationship and our connection. And sometimes really scaling up with these things. I think about jewelry that the room can wear, like jewelry for the gallery to adorn the space. And in my other body of work that deals more with candlesticks and chandeliers and things like that. The work I’ve done with chandeliers, I think about it as like a gym and the hanging in the center of the room or like a decoration or adornment for the space. And then allows me to make maybe some stranger decisions, or like, more out there decisions because I’m approaching it from that direction, rather than this is like a very small personal item that, you know, is really intimate and on the body and things like that. So I mean, the wonderful thing about teaching the Bead Project is, you know how connected people become to this time, it is a really small intimate object that you’re kind of like in your own world, you get sucked into this sort of flow state. And you’re really focused on making this small object and decorating it and things like that. And then it means so much to people like this, this experience that they have this one on one moment that they have with the material. And then this object that they get out of it is so precious, like especially the first beads that they make, they’re always so excited, and the act of trading it together at the end that we all make a bead design that’s ours… like your signature and then treat it with one another and then that’s like your memory of… For me, it’s my students, for them, it’s their classmates. I just love that kind of symbol of someone’s personality and identity encompassed in this tiny object.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

That’s beautiful. I love the idea of adornment for the room. Because I mean, that is what interior design is right? But I haven’t thought about it with that particular word, you know. And it makes a lot of sense to me. And I can totally see how to open up how you think about the chandelier, or how you think about the audience’s relationship with not only the chandelier, but the the space as well, and how the relationship between those things, you know, the space, the object in the audience, if you’re thinking about them, and means of adornment that would really shift how you’re thinking about the creation of the work. That’s… it’s beautiful.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

Yeah, I think when I think about, like using the chandelier, as an example, thinking about it as a succinct object, my brain tends to go down this technical route of like, oh, how is it constructed, and I need to do it the right way. And I need to research how other people did it and all this stuff. And then when I think about it more as this sculpture that adorns the room, it does kind of give me more permission to to like scramble the parts of the candelabra and see what happens or like, in one of my pieces, the chandelier is upside down, you know, and, but there’s so much other stuff going on on it that people don’t, don’t even recognize that at first, until they kind of spend a little bit of time with them. They’re like, “Oh, it’s flipped.” You know?

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

That’s great. I love that. I love how freeing just the terminology can shift your relationship with not only how you’re approaching making of the piece, but your freedom of that making, I mean that just by one word, shift, it’s wonderful. The adornment question is really important for me too, because so much of the foundation of my work is related to the history of adornment in our culture, the making of moccasins, the making of dresses, the making of leggings, the making of jewelry, the making of hair, adornment, the makeup, I mean, it’s just the basis of so much of Lakota artwork is related to either adornment of of an individual of your relatives of, you know, creating a fully beaded cradleboard that you’re going to carry your newborn in, you know, I mean, it’s you’re surrounding them with beauty, right? You’re so your adornment in the way that I think about it is an IT is an act of love, it’s an act of, of honoring, it’s an act of bringing your, your love for a person into physical form, and wrapping them in it. Right? The way that it has historically been created in our communities. And the way that that continues into my practice is by these, like tiny increments of repetitive motions that are built up over great lengths of time. And to me, that’s a testament to love, right? So you do the same thing over and over and over and over and over again, until you have this completed thing that you can then, you know, wrap somebody’s feet in, or in the instance of gallery and museum spaces that you can adorn the room with. So that people feel encompassed by that, right. That’s part of the… Oftentimes, when the work is of large scale, it’s because I want people to feel immersed in that, in that space, and the care of the repetitive motion, the care of like filling an entire space, with one stroke at a time or one bead at a time or one stack of beads at a time is also an example of that, of that care and of that accumulation of care. And there are times when the pieces are intimate in nature to when they’re smaller. And that’s just a different experience of scale. And, you know, we talked a little bit about size and scale when you were speaking about your practice to and you know, there’s real value in when you talked about like a single bead, you know, is thinking about the relationship of the intimacy of exchange in that single bead like with somebody, one of your students becomes connected to the singular bead and everything that’s embedded within the singular bead, either that they created or that somebody that they feel connected To create it in the class and gifted to them, like that’s, that’s an act of care, that’s an act of love, right and that that that like tiny thing, that tiny item that is just impregnated with so much meaning and so much intentionality. Sometimes that intimate exchange, you know, can feel just as profound, sometimes even more profound than then the big, huge giant exchange, right. And so, you know, there are different kinds of relationships between audience and artwork. But I got excited about just questions around adornment, because it is such a foundational part of my cultural lineage, you know, and where, where, like, so much of the work starts for me, is the practice of adornment. And, and then it’s, I also really want to say Victoria, too, that I totally identify with what you’re talking about, between you and your mom. Me and my mom have the same thing. And me and my daughters have the same thing, especially my oldest is 21. Now and you know, we nerd out together on great jewelry all the time. That’s so cool. Yeah. And, you know, my like, I’ll if I get a new piece of quilt or beaded earrings or something, I know that if I opened it up in front of my mom, I’m like, like, these ones are for me. Yes, you can borrow this pair. And then we’ll laugh, you know, really hard, because, you know, we just have this shared passion for and love for adornment, you know, for jewelry. And that’s something that me and my oldest share now too, and, and she’s also a jewelry maker, and she does beautiful work. And so, you know, the participation in that practice in that continuum is grounded in adornment as well.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

That’s so wonderful, and heartwarming to hear that it’s a connection for you all as well. And that, yeah, the accumulation of care. Like, I just love those words. And it being an expression of love makes so much sense and, and such a great way to look at it. Yeah, that feeling when you wear something that your relatives used to wear, or you were gifted something from someone who’s important to you. And then when you wear it, you feel like they’re with you. You know, I feel like your words, for me, really speak to that kind of sensation.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

Lots of moments of relatability across practices, even though from the outside, they may look different, you know, I was excited to be paired with you, too. Yeah, to look at, you know, learn a little bit more about your practice and, and then just the connection to glass. You know, that’s something that I mentioned in my talk. Like, this is the first time anybody asked me to talk about glass, which I, I feel like makes sense, just because so many people perceive me as a painter. But the more and more that I participate in different areas within this field, or within this medium, you know, I’ve had the opportunity to create glass mosaics. I’m in the middle of a project where I’ll be using float glass, and there are more projects down the line. And it’s exciting to me, because I really didn’t put the connections together that it’s a medium that I have been using since I was a teenager, right? Until I showed up in Germany and was like, immersed in a glass shop. And it was like, oh, no, no, I already know. Okay, I’ve been using this thing. And there were so many direct connections between the glass beads and, you know, cakes of glass that I saw there, or the small tea and all the like the colors, you know, the palettes are related and everything, because it is glass, right. But like, the medium was beads, not glass, or glass beads. But it wasn’t until I had an opportunity to continue to expand participation in glass and I was like, Oh, this is something that’s like, been a long-term part of my practice. And it continues to evolve and continues to grow and, and it’s something really exciting about so it was exciting to be invited, you know, to talk about this particular medium because I’ve been able to nerd out about it on my own. So it’s nice to be able to nerd out about it with other people that are excited about the medium. And then to learn about the work that you’re doing to create continued access or to create access points, you know, entry points for students. I just love that.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

I agree. It was so wonderful to be paired with you. And at first, when I was looking at your work, I was like, Well, yeah, I do work with the Bead Project, and this person does beadwork, but I don’t know, you know, I want to kind of check them out and see what the other similarities are. And I, as I was watching your talk, I was like, Oh, my God, of course, they paired us together, like this makes so much sense, and just how you’re talking about shifting the narrative around abstraction. You know, it’s, it’s not the exact same conversation in my work. But as I go along my journey, I think more and more about, like my work standing in opposition to racism, and systemic inequality, and like these kind of vulnerable, tender moments that some of these pieces are depicting, you know, standing against negative forces like that. And then hearing you talking about shifting this narrative and kind of giving credit where credit’s due, you know, I really connect to that so strongly. And hearing, the way you talk about it in your practice, is so inspiring. For me, I think it does give people who are listening, more tools to kind of discuss these sorts of things. And you know, if other artists are watching, discuss these things in their work, too. Because I think when I was younger, I was very, like, I was more timid to make things overtly about the cultural connections and my cultural background and things like that. And the older I get, I’m like, This is me, this is who I am. This is my whole family. This, like, how you were saying: the influence of Native culture on your work isn’t from looking and research. It’s from lived experience, and inherently being surrounded by it, your life. And that’s really powerful, too.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

And that’s an exciting thought that you’re talking about, because when you said that you’re you know, when you’re younger, you shied away from it being super overt. And I can completely connect with that experience. And I think, I think probably most people of color can identify to some extent with that experience. And that is because of the way that our histories have been taught so far. Yeah. When we enter academia, when we enter encyclopedic museums, when we enter public art spaces, we have either overtly or covertly been taught that our work that is specifically related to our cultures is something other than Yeah, I remember describing this feeling in grad schools, I felt like I had to put my culture in my back pocket, to, to thrive in these classrooms. And in these spaces and conversations with people because my experience was different. It wasn’t necessarily being illustrated to me that it was valued, right, that leads to an equal value, especially because none of the history that I had learned up until that point was being taught. And so because that was not being taught, that’s a messaging to me that it’s not as valuable. It’s not, and it’s something that’s going to place me in a different category, it’s going to be the odd man out that’s going to make other people uncomfortable. And I’m already uncomfortable. So what does that mean? Yeah, like so. Like you said, as you’ve gotten older, and I feel the same way, like as, as I’ve matured, and as I’ve worked my way through these spaces, and you start to negotiate and deal with your own insecurities, and what those mean, and when they’re serving to protect you. And when they’re serving to limit you. And you start to decide, it does not matter. It does not matter. Or… and/or it matters tremendously, that I’m being as honest about my lived experiences as possible because when I’m making my work from its most honest place, it’s the strongest work.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

Yes, absolutely. And I feel like being an artist is such a gamble and a risk and you’re already sticking your neck out so far to do that. Like you might as well represent. Like I did, I remember feeling like if I kind of insert this narrative about my parents’ immigration or my family’s culture into my work, that would feel like yeah, there’s some thing placed on top of glass or something or like a forced pairing or something like that. But when it comes from such a deeply integrated internal place, it’s like, yeah, it’s part of you. So of course it’s going to be in the work. Yeah.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

It’s quite natural that it comes out.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

It’s really not such a gamble, to be honest.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

No. I think the attempted suffocation of who you are is a gamble. I think that, you know, trying to abide by what the rules have been so far is the gamble because it’s you’re compromising yourself, you’re compromising the richness that has been your experience, that should be the thing that guides your practice, because that’s your unique voice. That’s what you have to contribute to the field, right? That’s what I have to contribute to the field. That’s what you know. And I just, I do really believe that each of us has our own unique stories and our own unique gifts. And when we really do the work to tap into those, and sometimes that’s hard work, and sometimes it’s long work. But when we look for the specificity of our own stories, then we each inevitably have something to contribute. That’s not just mimicry of the last person or the last era or the previous thoughts, but it’s building off of those thoughts, right? And those that have to be guided by the full experiences of who we are, and you know how we’ve navigated life thus far.

VICTORIA AHMADIZADEH MELENDEZ  

Well, yeah, it’s such a pleasure and honor to talk to you today. And I agree, like thank you so much GEEX for the invitation.

DYANI WHITE HAWK  

Likewise, it’s really been nice to talk to you, Victoria. Thank you GEEX squad for bringing us together.

EMILY LEACH  

And thanks for listening! This has been the GEEX Talks Q&A Podcast. I’m Emily Leach. I’m one part of the GEEX team, along with Ben Orozco and Helen Lee.

This conversation followed Victoria Ahmadizadeh Melendez and Dyani White Hawk’s respective GEEX Talks lectures from Fall 2023. The GEEX crew received questions from our audience, whittled them down to a short list, and then shared them with the speakers as a framework for their discussion. We’ve included the full list of questions in the show notes, so check them out to see whether your thoughts influenced the conversation. To learn more about these artists, follow Victoria Ahmadizadeh Melendez @internet___angel and Dyani White Hawk @dwhitehawk on Instagram. The GEEX Talks Q&A Podcast is produced by Emily Leach (that’s me!) and Ben Orozco. Our theme is “Refraction” by Podington Bear, with some additional music by Otis McDonald. A huge thank you to the GEEX Talks Subscribers for your continued support and engagement!

You can listen to all of our podcast episodes and watch all four seasons of the GEEX Talks lecture series on our website. Remember to submit questions for upcoming speakers via email to questions@geex.glass. If you haven’t subscribed to GEEX Talks yet, there’s a three-month public access period  — visit the GEEX Glass YouTube channel to listen and enjoy these lectures before they enter the GEEX Talks Archive. Learn more about subscribing to GEEX Talks on our website: geex.glass/support. Many thanks to our sponsors for this episode, Vetro Vero and Bullseye Glass! Based in Pennsylvania, Vetro Vero offers limited production blown glass vessels, hand-formed contemporary goblets, and original sculptures. Vetro Vero: leaders in contemporary blown glass design since 2011. Visit their website at vetrovero.com. Bullseye Glass Company collaborates with artists to produce quality art glass. Handcrafted in Portland, Oregon since 1974. Visit their website at bullseyeglass.com.

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Selected questions from the audience:

• INTRO: Can you talk about your general impressions of each other’s practices? What did you learn from listening to each other’s lectures?
• PROCESS (VICTORIA): How do you balance the writing process with your sculptural work? Does your perspective shift during the transition from writing to a physical medium?
• PROCESS (DYANI): Can you share some details about beading, both on your canvases and large scale installations? What is the order of operations for incorporating beadworking into your paintings, or relative to your patterns? How much time does it take for you and your studio crew to produce these pieces? (And what does your collection of beads or crating systems look like?)
• ADORNMENT: Thinking about beads and jewelry: what is the significance of adornment relative to your work? How do the many functions of jewelry — as a collection, as a resource, or as an aspect of cultural participation — resonate with the kinds of work you create?
• MATERIAL & MEANING: Do you ascribe particular meanings to repeated motifs/materials in your work? Are these fixed meanings or more fluid?
  • FOR DYANI: It seems that doors/windows have been recurring imagery in your work since “Seeing,” which you shared was completed during your MFA while growing more familiar with Western art history. How has learning about Western art history impacted your relationship to the audience and your perceptions of how they may interpret your work?
• COLLABORATION: Connections and collaboration with other community members and artists seem to be a major component of some of your pieces. Can you talk more about why that is, how you form these collaborative relationships and why you feel they are important in your work?
• MATERIAL & MEDIUM: Thinking about the significance of how we understand and categorize our own artistic practice. Dyani, your understanding of your practice — in relation to glass — has shifted the scale and spaces your work occupies while still remaining true to practices you began as a teenager. Victoria, you have worked with molten glass for a long time but also simultaneously work in poetry. How do your own understandings of your chosen “forms” or “mediums” impact how you consider or contextualize your work?
• TRANSPARENCY AND OPACITY: Considering the distinct difference between the parts of Victoria’s talk: formally discussing the Bead Project versus reading poetry and prose during the slides of your work. This reminds me of the questions Dyani shared during the Carry series slides: 
  • “When Native artists bring with us the artistic traditions and knowledge of our people into museum and gallery spaces: how does the function of the work change? What do we intentionally carry with us into these spaces? What do we leave out?”
  • How do you balance transparency and opacity in your artistic practice? How do you determine what to share and what to protect or “hold dear”?
• SCALE AND IMPACT: Both of you work and/or teach with the impossibly small unit of beads, and yet you both have a really grand impact on your communities with respect to power. Could you speak to this dynamic? Do you see a connection between the aggregate nature of beads as a material and the messages or impact of your work?

Thanks to educators and learners from the University of Wisconsin-Madison for sharing questions! Learn how to become a Subscriber here.

Theme music by Poddington Bear. Additional music in this episode by Otis McDonald.

Edited and produced by Emily Leach and Ben Orozco.